Why Your Sales Team Has a Leads Problem—and How to Fix It
Kevin Lawson and Sean O'Shaughnessy argue that most sales teams don't have a leads quantity problem but rather a leads definition problem rooted in poorly defined ideal client profiles. They walk through how to build an ICP using existing best customers as a template, and explain why narrowing your target list is more powerful than expanding it. The episode concludes with a call to interview your top five customers before building any new lead list.
Summary
Kevin opens by asserting that every business has a leads problem, which manifests in one of three ways: too few leads, too many leads with no prioritization system, or a large volume of the wrong leads. He argues that the root cause across all three scenarios is the same — a failure to document a clearly defined ideal client profile (ICP). He challenges listeners to carve out time to define their target companies in precise demographic terms: employee count, revenue size, executive tenure, software stack, number of locations, and other measurable firmographic data. He recommends free and paid tools such as Data Axle, Apollo, ZoomInfo, KnowledgeNet, Seamless, and Crunchbase as resources for building and validating this data.
Kevin also emphasizes the psychographic dimension of ICP-building — understanding why companies in a given market buy, what problems they are trying to solve, and what broader strategic goals drive their purchasing decisions. He uses a sports analogy to illustrate the concept of pattern recognition: just as a 7-foot person walking down the street signals basketball, certain company characteristics signal likelihood to buy. He warns against the common but flawed belief that 'everyone is a customer,' noting that even in large industries, most companies hold only a small fraction of the addressable market.
Sean builds on Kevin's foundation by reframing ICP development around a customer interview strategy. He suggests identifying the five companies that were the most enjoyable and frictionless to sell to — those who understood the value proposition immediately, paid list price, and moved quickly — and treating them as the template for future ideal clients. Sean argues that interviewing these customers about how they make money, how they lose money, and what pressures they face in their market yields dual benefits: it may reveal upsell opportunities with existing customers, and it provides messaging intelligence that can be applied directly to prospecting conversations with similar companies.
Sean also addresses the issue of list size and capacity realism. He argues that sellers and sales leaders must factor in their actual operational capacity when sizing their target list. If a company can only onboard 100 new customers in a year, a list of 500 companies with a 20% close rate is more than sufficient — and geographic or industry constraints should be used to trim the list further rather than chase unserviceable opportunities. He gives the example of a St. Louis-based company driving past dozens of local prospects to reach a single account in Indiana, arguing this is a misallocation of effort.
Kevin closes by tying together the four foundational elements discussed: ideal client profile, unique value proposition, messaging, and realistic market share targets. He reiterates that all three leads problems — too few, too many, or wrong — are resolved by tightening the definition of who you serve, articulating the value clearly, and finding the right decision-makers at the right companies.
About this episode
<p dir="ltr">For many sales teams, the leads problem is not really a leads problem. It is an ideal client profile problem, a value proposition problem, and a focus problem disguised as pipeline activity. In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, Kevin Lawson and Sean O'Shaughnessey dig into the practical discipline of building a lead list that salespeople can actually use, one grounded in clear ICP definition, sharper Messaging, better Sales processes, and a more realistic understanding of market share. This is a direct, useful conversation for sales leaders, owners, and sellers who want better Revenue generation without wasting effort on prospects they were never built to win.</p> <h2 dir="ltr">Key Topics Discussed</h2> <p dir="ltr">The three versions of a leads problem — 00:00<br /> Kevin opens with a useful distinction: some companies have no leads, some have too many leads, and some have plenty of the wrong leads. Each problem requires a different sales management response, but all three point back to the same issue: the business has not clearly defined who it should pursue.</p> <p dir="ltr">Building an ideal client profile before building the list — 01:10<br /> The episode makes a strong case for documenting the ideal client profile in practical, observable terms. Company size, revenue, locations, executive tenure, installed systems, and other demographic signals should inform the list before a seller starts calling. This is where Business acumen begins to separate disciplined Sales strategies from random prospecting.</p> <p dir="ltr">Using buying signals and psychographics to improve Value selling — 03:00<br /> Kevin explains that the demographic definition is only part of the work. Sellers also need to understand why companies buy, what pressure they are trying to relieve, and what business outcomes matter to them. That is the bridge between raw data and meaningful Value selling.</p> <p dir="ltr">Learning from your five best customers — 07:44<br /> Sean reframes ICP work around a deceptively simple question: which five customers were the most fun, easiest, fastest, and most valuable to sell? Those companies likely hold the clues to your best future market. Interview them, study them, and use what you learn from them to sharpen your Messaging.</p> <p dir="ltr">Shrinking the market to improve Sales success — 10:37<br /> Sean challenges the common assumption that a bigger list is better. Most companies cannot sell to, serve, or fulfill every opportunity in their theoretical market. A focused list, built around realistic capacity and high-fit targets, can drive better Sales success than a bloated database full of distractions.</p> <p dir="ltr">Turning ICP, value proposition, and market share into Revenue management discipline — 13:31<br /> Kevin closes by tying the episode back to the fundamentals: ideal client profile, unique value proposition, Messaging, market share, and the actual people who buy. Strong Revenue management starts when leaders stop treating all leads as equal and begin building repeatable systems around the customers they can serve best.</p> <h2 dir="ltr">Key Quotes</h2> <p dir="ltr">"Every business has a leads problem. I don't care if you are wildly successful, really struggling, or somewhere in the middle." — Kevin Lawson, 00:13</p> <p dir="ltr">"If you haven't written down in painstaking detail who you want to attract and sell to, carve out time to do your demographic definition." — Kevin Lawson, 01:45</p> <p dir="ltr">"Who are the five companies that you sold to that were just fun to sell to? They got your product, your service, your capability, your offering immediately." — Sean O'Shaughnessey, 07:44</p> <p dir="ltr">"You have more people to sell to than you can possibly imagine. You need to whittle your ideal client profile down." — Sean O'Shaughnessey, 10:12</p> <p dir="ltr">"We have to find our sweet spot and then lean into it. That's how we make a successful year out of a leads problem." — Kevin Lawson, 14:17</p> <h2 dir="ltr">Additional Resources</h2> <p dir="ltr">Kevin references several data and research tools that can help sales teams define and build better lead lists, including:</p> <ul> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">Data Axle through public library access</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">Apollo</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">KnowledgeNet</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">Seamless</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">ZoomInfo</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">Crunchbase</p> </li> </ul> <h2 dir="ltr">A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast</h2> <p dir="ltr">Identify your five best customers and interview them before building or expanding your next lead list.</p> <p dir="ltr">Do not start with a database. Start with reality. Look at the customers who bought quickly, understood your value, paid appropriately, were good to serve, and represented the kind of business you would gladly replicate. Then ask them deeper questions: how they make money, where they lose money, what pressures are changing in their market, what they value from vendors, and what would make your company more useful to them.</p> <p dir="ltr">That work will improve your ideal client profile, sharpen your value proposition, and give your salespeople better Messaging for future outreach. More importantly, it forces a decision: are you trying to sell to everyone, or are you building a focused market where your Sales processes can consistently generate Revenue?</p> <h2 dir="ltr">Summary</h2> <p dir="ltr">This episode is a strong listen for any sales leader, owner, or seller who has mistaken activity for strategy. Kevin and Sean argue that lead generation works only when the target market is defined with sufficient precision to guide action. The conversation moves from ICP and buying signals to market focus, list building, sales capacity, and practical Revenue management. If your pipeline feels too thin, too noisy, or too full of poor-fit opportunities, this episode will help you rethink the problem before you waste another quarter chasing the wrong companies.<br /> <br /></p> <p class="p1"><strong>B2B Sales Lab is a private, member-led community for sales professionals who want actionable insights, not theory.</strong> It's a space to ask real questions, share proven practices, and connect with others who are serious about improving revenue performance. Designed and led by veteran sales leaders, the Lab is where strategy meets execution. Join us at b2b-sales-lab.com</p> <p class="p2"> </p> <p class="p1">You can reach out to Sean at New Sales Expert, LLC - <a href="mailto:[email protected]"><span class="s1">[email protected]</span></a> - <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/soshaughnessey/"><span class="s1">https://www.linkedin.com/in/soshaughnessey/</span></a></p> <p class="p2"> </p> <p class="p1">You can reach out to Kevin at Lighthouse Sales Advisors & Sales Xceleration - <a href="mailto:[email protected]"><span class="s1">[email protected]</span></a> - <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kwlawson/"><span class="s1">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kwlawson/</span></a></p> <p class="p2"> </p> <p class="p1">You can book time on Kevin's calendar at <a href="https://lighthousesalesadvisors.pipedrive.com/scheduler/JP7rZXH3/virtual-meeting-booking-time-with-kevin"> <span class="s1">https://lighthousesalesadvisors.pipedrive.com/scheduler/JP7rZXH3/virtual-meeting-booking-time-with-kevin</span></a></p> <p class="p2"> </p> <p class="p1">You can book time on Sean's calendar at http://newsales.expert/sean-oshaughnessey-calendar/</p>
Key Insights
- Kevin argues that all three leads problems — too few, too many, and wrong leads — share the same root cause: sales teams have not documented in specific detail the demographic and psychographic profile of the companies they are best positioned to serve.
- Sean claims that a company's five most frictionless past sales — customers who got the offering immediately, paid list price, and moved fast — are the most reliable template for defining the ideal client profile, more reliable than abstract market analysis.
- Kevin contends that most salespeople who claim their product is for 'everyone' or that they are in a 'trillion-dollar industry' are actually capturing only a small fraction of that market, and that over-broad targeting actively undermines their ability to compete.
- Sean argues that interviewing existing best customers about how they make money, lose money, and what pressures they face is more valuable than querying AI tools alone, because it produces messaging that is specific to that industry's actual concerns rather than generic summaries.
- Sean asserts that list size should be determined by a company's real service and operational capacity — not by market size — and that a focused list of 500 companies with a 20% close rate is more productive than an unmanageable list of 10,000 companies spread across three salespeople.
Topics
Transcript
Too many sales teams think they need more leads when the real problem is that they have not clearly defined the companies they should be pursuing. In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, Kevin Lawson and Sean O'Shaughnessy break down how to build a stronger ideal client profile, sharpen your value proposition, and stop wasting time on prospects that we're never likely to buy. You'll hear why your best customers may already hold the clues to your next best opportunities. Stay with us because this conversation will help you turn a messy lead list into a focused sales strategy. For every seller out there who's doing some of their own marketing or sales leader who's thinking about how…
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