Michael Kratsios: Trump's Science Agenda, Anti-Science Claims, Fauci's Damage, DEI & China
Michael Kratsios, Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, discusses the Trump administration's science agenda, arguing that politicization of science during COVID damaged public trust and that government should refocus on basic research, funding individual scientists over institutions, and competing with China's scientific output through initiatives like the Genesis Mission to apply AI to scientific challenges.
Summary
Michael Kratsios defends the Trump administration against accusations of being anti-science, emphasizing that the administration wants to double U.S. scientific output and has released a report called 'Science, A New Golden Age' outlining this vision. He argues that science has become politicized over the past 15-20 years, reaching a peak during COVID when disagreement with certain authorities was labeled as anti-science. Kratsios contends that true science depends on questioning and inquiry, and that the current scientific community has moved away from the scientific method toward dogma.
Regarding science funding, Kratsios explains that the U.S. government spends $200 billion annually on science and technology but questions whether this spending is optimally allocated. He highlights that NIH funding has more than tripled since 1998 (from $14 billion to $47 billion) but breakthrough treatments have not increased proportionally, citing Eroom's Law showing efficiency declining 80-fold since 1950. The administration argues that simply increasing budgets without examining allocation methods is ineffective.
Kratsios cites the National Science Foundation as an example, noting that roughly 25% of grants during the Biden administration went to DEI-related initiatives—approximately $2 billion per year or $8 billion over four years. He characterizes this as politicization rather than gold-standard science. Regarding climate change, he states the administration acknowledges that humans have contributed to CO2 through fossil fuel burning but disputes the characterization of a 'climate emergency,' citing the removal of the RCP 8.5 scenario from climate predictions as evidence that extreme projections were unfounded.
On the broader question of scientific stagnation, Kratsios points to the declining speed of commercial flight (Concorde no longer exists) as evidence that innovation has slowed. He proposes implementing 'meta science' units at NSF and NIH to experiment with different funding models, including 'golden tickets' that allow individual peer reviewers to fund grants without committee consensus, and variable grant durations beyond the standard 18 months to better match different research needs.
Kratsios discusses four channels for science funding: government agencies, universities, private industry, and independent research organizations like Howard Hughes Medical Institute and Max Planck. He argues that the post-WWII model established by Vannevar Bush—where government primarily funded basic research at universities—is outdated, as the ratio of public to private R&D spending has inverted from 70% government/30% private to 30% government/70% private. The administration advocates for government funding of basic, pre-competitive research where private markets lack incentive.
The conversation addresses competition with China, which has increased R&D spending from $33 billion in 2000 to $670 billion by 2021, while the U.S. increased from roughly $220 billion to $660 billion. China now publishes more scientific papers than the U.S. in nearly every domain except some life sciences. Kratsios argues that China's centralized scientific approach, while achieving scale, has failed to produce breakthrough innovations (citing their inability to develop EUV lithography despite decades of effort and enormous resources). He emphasizes that America's competitive advantage lies in its decentralized, market-driven innovation ecosystem that attracts global talent.
Kratsios identifies a critical pipeline problem: seven out of ten STEM PhD recipients in the U.S. are foreign-born, compared to 30% foreign-born 30 years ago in computer science. He notes that programs encouraging gifted American students to pursue STEM were discontinued and advocates for their restoration. He also proposes more flexible immigration policies to retain foreign PhD graduates who currently return to China or other countries.
Regarding the perception that scientists were once celebrities and 'rock stars,' Kratsios acknowledges COVID and figures like Dr. Fauci damaged public trust in science. He argues that Fauci 'did more disservice to science than anyone in modern history' due to inconsistent guidance (mask mandates for students vs. approval for collective protests, preventing hospital visits) that undermined scientific credibility. He positions the administration's emphasis on scientific inquiry and questioning as necessary healing.
The administration's major initiatives include: the Genesis Mission to double U.S. scientific output through AI application; space exploration targets (return to moon by 2028, moon base by 2030, nuclear reactor in space by 2028); a quantum computing initiative targeting a scientifically-relevant quantum computer by 2028; and fusion energy goals by 2035. Kratsios emphasizes that AI for science focuses on applying AI to existing basic research rather than competing with private sector AI development.
Finally, Kratsios addresses Congressional dynamics, noting that while many Hill members prioritize funding for their districts and states, he believes the Golden Age recommendations are sufficiently nonpartisan and benefit diverse regions that they can gain bipartisan support. He expresses optimism that these institutional changes will prove effective and resistant to political reversal, though he acknowledges the political challenges of implementing them.
About this episode
<p dir="ltr">(0:00) Michael Kratsios joins the show!</p> <p dir="ltr">(01:56) Is this administration anti-science? The Nature poll, DEI grants, and $8B down the drain </p> <p dir="ltr">(8:16) Climate science cuts: RCP 8.5 gets pulled and the "climate emergency" narrative collapses</p> <p dir="ltr">(13:45) $47B at NIH, Eroom's Law, and golden tickets: has American science stagnated? </p> <p dir="ltr">(22:24) Big bold bets: Genesis Mission, quantum by 2028, fusion by 2035, boots on the moon in '28 </p> <p dir="ltr">(34:04) The great race with China: $33B to $670B, and 7 out of 10 STEM PhDs aren't American </p> <p dir="ltr">(44:09) Fauci did more damage to science than anyone in modern history, and NIH's median researcher is 71</p> <p><strong><br /> <br /></strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Follow the besties: </p> <p dir="ltr">https://x.com/chamath</p> <p dir="ltr">https://x.com/Jason</p> <p dir="ltr">https://x.com/DavidSacks</p> <p dir="ltr">https://x.com/friedberg</p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Follow on X:</p> <p dir="ltr">https://x.com/theallinpod</p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Follow on Instagram:</p> <p dir="ltr">https://www.instagram.com/theallinpod</p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Follow on TikTok:</p> <p dir="ltr">https://www.tiktok.com/@allin</p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Follow on LinkedIn: </p> <p dir="ltr">https://www.linkedin.com/company/allinpod</p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Intro Music Credit:</p> <p dir="ltr">https://rb.gy/tppkzl</p> <p dir="ltr">https://x.com/yung_spielburg</p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Intro Video Credit:</p> <p dir="ltr">https://x.com/TheZachEffect</p> <p><strong><br /> <br /></strong></p> <p dir="ltr">#allin #tech #news</p> <p> </p>
Key Insights
- Kratsios argues that science became deeply politicized over 15-20 years, culminating in COVID when disagreement with specific authorities was automatically labeled anti-science, which he characterizes as the most anti-scientific conclusion possible.
- The administration contends that the RCP 8.5 climate scenario, which dominated climate assessments and media coverage for 20 years and drove substantial funding, was recently removed by the IPCC as scientifically unsustainable, undermining decades of policy based on worst-case projections.
- Kratsios claims approximately $8 billion in NSF funding over four years went to DEI-related initiatives rather than science merit, representing a 25% portion of grants during the Biden administration and exemplifying politicization of research funding.
- Despite tripling NIH funding from $14 billion (1998) to $47 billion (2024), breakthrough treatments have not increased proportionally, with Eroom's Law showing efficiency declining 80-fold since 1950 and halving every nine years.
- Kratsios identifies a critical demographic inversion in STEM PhDs: whereas 70% of computer science doctorates were American-born 30 years ago, this has inverted to 70% foreign-born, with foreign graduates frequently returning to China or other countries rather than staying in the U.S.
- Kratsios attributes the collapse of public trust in science primarily to Dr. Fauci's inconsistent pandemic guidance, particularly contradictions between mask mandates for students versus approval of mass protests and restrictions on hospital visitations, which he characterizes as worse damage to science than any single figure in modern history.
- The administration proposes that the post-WWII Vannevar Bush model of government-funded university research is obsolete because R&D funding has inverted from 70% public/30% private to 30% public/70% private, requiring government to focus exclusively on basic research the private sector won't fund.
- Kratsios argues that China's centralized scientific approach, despite 19-fold spending increases and now publishing more papers than the U.S., has failed to produce breakthrough innovations, evidenced by their inability to independently develop EUV lithography despite two decades of maximum-priority effort since 2019 export controls.
Topics
Transcript
Is this administration anti-science? We want to essentially double the scientific output of the United States. Did we lose it or did it lead to moments where you have like Fauci? That's a great question. Are we in this moment, this populist moment right now in the West where science and technology is viewed as a tool of the elite and therefore it must be broken and destroyed? That's what's most tragic. That is a crazy, crazy fact. Has science stagnated in america what the heck is going on michael kratios welcome to to the All In interview. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. So you are the director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy…
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