The Unwritten Rules of CRO Survival | Rick Smolen, CRO @ ShipHero
Rick Smolen, CRO of ShipHero, discusses how AI acts as a leverage tool that can either dramatically improve performance or cause catastrophic failure in go-to-market teams. He emphasizes that AI should enhance human work rather than replace critical thinking, and argues that the best revenue leaders will become exponentially better while average performers will deteriorate without proper AI implementation discipline.
Summary
Rick Smolen joins the Top Line podcast to explore artificial intelligence's impact on revenue operations and sales leadership. The discussion centers on a critical premise: AI is fundamentally a leverage tool, like debt, that amplifies existing capabilities—making great performers exceptional and poor performers exponentially worse.
On AI pitfalls, Smolen expresses skepticism about so-called "cheat codes" that promise to automate sales work entirely. He identifies several failed use cases: AI-generated emails that recipients immediately recognize as inauthentic, automated note-taking that captures facts but misses emotional nuance and context, and over-reliance on AI for positioning and follow-up work. When salespeople outsource critical thinking to AI, their performance degrades because they lose the cognitive engagement necessary to understand customers deeply. Smolen notes that enterprise and mid-market sales require catching subtle cues—tonal shifts, awkward pauses, political dynamics—that AI systems fundamentally cannot capture.
The transcript details how AI actually succeeds in specific applications: building ICPs and lead lists faster, creating better-targeted campaigns, developing personalized sales demos through no-code tools, enabling faster research and call preparation, and providing thought partnership on email copy (provided humans own the final output). Smolen emphasizes that top performers use AI as an assistant to their expertise, not a substitute for it.
On productivity and quotas, Smolen challenges the assumption that AI will enable enterprise sales reps to triple or quadruple quotas. While AI-enabled companies in high-growth markets (PLG, SMB) have demonstrated 2-4x productivity gains, enterprise sellers face structural constraints: they must travel, meet customers in person, and attend conferences. Time available cannot be infinitely compressed. Instead, Smolen argues that AI should improve conversion rates, qualification accuracy, and deal execution rather than dramatically increase rep capacity.
The conversation explores how revenue leaders are evaluated beyond business performance. Smolen identifies three key evaluation criteria: (1) talent quality—building and retaining high-caliber teams, (2) operating rhythm—creating motivated, engaged, accountable teams through clear rituals and expectations, and (3) strategic planning—developing thoughtful plans (not excuses) for navigating market conditions. Importantly, Smolen notes that being fired as a CRO often results from factors beyond individual control; leaders should focus on owning their strategy rather than worrying about politics.
On when to leave struggling companies versus persisting, Smolen advises CROs to have a credible plan and hold themselves accountable to it. The reasons for departures are not always merit-based; sometimes organizational factors dictate decisions. However, leaders should feel good about their strategic approach regardless of outcomes. The transcript includes debate about whether top enterprise sellers today outperform their counterparts from previous generations, with consensus that the best are better (game has advanced) but the average and worst performers are significantly worse.
The discussion also covers marketing's role in pipeline generation, noting that AI-driven productivity expectations have created pressure for excessive content volume, often resulting in mediocre output. Smolen advocates for distinguishing between inbound/PLG/SMB sales (where AI leverage multiplies results significantly) and enterprise sales (where human relationship management remains paramount).
About this episode
<p>The Unwritten Rules of CRO Survival | Rick Smolen, CRO @ ShipHero</p> <p>Rick Smolen, CRO of ShipHero and sales advisor to Riverwood Capital's portfolio of more than 2 dozen enterprise software companies, joins Sam Jacobs, AJ Bruno, and Asad Zaman to argue that AI is leverage rather than a shortcut. Topics include why AI note-takers quietly degrade seller performance, why ShipHero has not raised a single quota despite real AI investment, and why the leading AI companies keep hiring classic enterprise CROs. Plus Rick's scorecard for judging revenue leadership beyond the number, an honest conversation about getting fired, and a bull case for HubSpot. In short... big episode!</p> <p>Key Takeaways:</p> <p>- AI widens the gap between the best and worst sellers instead of lifting everyone, and Rick Smolen, CRO at ShipHero, frames it in financial terms: "It's like debt... debt is leverage. It can make performance exceptionally good, or it can bankrupt you." His prediction is that the strongest performers get 10x better while the weakest become "unmistakable and hard to hide."<br /> - Outsourcing note-taking to an AI tool costs sellers the exact signal that closes enterprise deals. As Rick put it: "the computer can't capture the tone, can't capture the nuance, can't capture the content." His warning to any rep who treats it as time saved: "when a seller is going to say, oh cool, I don't have to do note-taking anymore, like their performance is going to go backwards."<br /> - The 3-to-5x rep productivity story does not survive contact with an enterprise sales cycle. Despite meaningful AI investment and measurable conversion-rate gains, Rick reports that at ShipHero "we have not raised quotas on anybody on the team," adding that "I don't believe that if I was to double somebody's quota that I give them any chance to be successful."<br /> - The AI-native companies scaling fastest are staffing go-to-market with the most traditional enterprise leaders available. Asad Zaman, CEO at STA, walks through the CRO hires at OpenAI, Cursor, Factory, and Anthropic and lands on the pattern: "we're back to like, let's just hire John McMahon's disciples and let them run at the market."</p> <p>Connect with the Hosts & Guests:</p> <p>Host: Sam Jacobs, CEO at Pavilion - https://www.linkedin.com/in/samfjacobs/<br /> Host: AJ Bruno, CEO at QuotaPath - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ajbruno3/<br /> Host: Asad Zaman, CEO at STA - https://www.linkedin.com/in/azaman1/<br /> Guest: Rick Smolen, CRO at ShipHero - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ricksmolen/</p> <p>Topline is more than a YouTube Channel:</p> <p>Subscribe to Topline Newsletter: https://toplinemedia.substack.com/<br /> Tune into Topline Podcast, the #1 podcast for founders, operators, and investors in B2B tech: https://www.joinpavilion.com/topline-podcast<br /> Join the free Topline Slack channel to connect with 600+ revenue leaders to keep the conversation going beyond the podcast: <a href="https://www.joinpavilion.com/topline-slack">https://www.joinpavilion.com/topline-slack</a></p> <p>Chapters: <br /> 00:00 Introducing Rick Smolen<br /> 02:37 AI Is Not Good Or Bad<br /> 05:19 The AI Slop Email Mystery<br /> 08:25 AI Note-Takers And Lost Nuance<br /> 12:01 The Best Get Better, The Rest Worse<br /> 15:24 The Soft Part Of Enterprise Sales<br /> 18:24 Can Reps Be 5x More Productive?<br /> 23:09 Have Quotas Gone Up At ShipHero?<br /> 26:48 Why AI Firms Hire Classic CROs<br /> 30:48 What Is Driving Pipeline Now<br /> 49:37 Leadership In A Confused World<br /> 56:44 Should A CRO Jump Ship?<br /> 59:35 Have A Plan, Not Excuses<br /> 1:06:08 Bulls And Bears: HubSpot<br /> 1:09:32 Vibe-Coded Demos And FDE Teams</p>
Key Insights
- Smolen argues that AI functions as leverage—it amplifies whatever work people are already doing, so poor work becomes exponentially worse while excellent work becomes exponentially better.
- Smolen contends that when salespeople rely on AI note-taking, they lose critical engagement with customer interactions, missing emotional cues and nuance that determine buyer behavior.
- Smolen observes that recipients can immediately identify AI-generated emails and cold outreach, which creates an authenticity problem that damages relationships in enterprise and mid-market sales.
- Smolen claims that enterprise sales quotas are unlikely to triple or quadruple with AI because sellers face structural time constraints: travel, in-person meetings, and conference attendance cannot be infinitely compressed.
- Smolen identifies that AI-enabled SMB and PLG companies have demonstrated 2-4x productivity gains, which differ fundamentally from enterprise contexts with different structural constraints.
- Smolen argues that great CROs should be evaluated on three criteria: talent acquisition quality, operating rhythm (motivation and accountability), and strategic planning—not business performance alone.
- Smolen contends that conversion rate improvements at ShipHero came from using AI to equip teams to say 'yes' to more customer requirements through complementary applications, not from reps saying better words.
- Smolen claims that AI sales roleplay tools remain inauthentic enough that adoption is low on teams with sufficient hiring capability and market demand.
- Smolen observes that as a CRO, being fired often results from factors beyond individual control, and vindictiveness about departures is counterproductive to long-term success.
- Smolen argues that mid-market and enterprise sales fundamentally differ from SMB sales in that they require catching customer nuance and political dynamics that AI cannot replicate.
- Smolen contends that no major go-to-market AI company has achieved zero-to-100M revenue in 24 months, suggesting AI applications in this category have not produced breakthrough scaling.
- Smolen claims that AI tools should be thought partners on sales tasks but humans must own all customer-facing outputs; outsourcing content decisions indicates poor leadership.
Topics
Transcript
AI is a leverage tool. It's like debt can make performance exceptionally good or it can bankrupt you. That's Rick Smolin, CRO of ShipHero and advisor to Riverwood Capital's portfolio of more than two dozen enterprise software companies. He's seen what winning with AI looks like, including a play he calls an actual cheat code. But he's also a skeptic, and he's seen revenue operators get burned by AI before. People are still doing work, and now they can do really poor work at an exponential level. So in today's episode, we cover how to avoid obliterating your results with AI. But we also cover a lot more ground, how revenue leaders are really judged when their number goes sideways,…
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