What's Outside The Simulation w/ Donald Hoffman
Cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman and Tom Bilyeu discuss whether reality is a simulation-like construct, arguing that space-time is not fundamental and will be replaced by deeper mathematical frameworks. Hoffman proposes that conscious observers (modeled as Markov chains) are the true base reality, while Bilyeu maintains that the 'you' only exists within the computational headset. The conversation explores what lies outside space-time, the possibility of editing physical reality like code, and the nature of identity and consciousness.
Summary
The conversation opens with Hoffman explaining that science has historically failed to model the observer collecting data — from Newton ignoring observers entirely, to Einstein reducing them to clocks and pointers, to quantum mechanics making the observer central but still lacking a universally accepted model of what an observer actually is.
Hoffman argues that space-time is not fundamental, citing leading physicists like Nima Arkani-Hamed who state 'space-time is doomed.' He explains the Planck scale problem: at 10^-33 cm and 10^-43 seconds, space-time loses all operational meaning because attempting to measure at smaller scales requires higher-energy radiation, which curves space-time and eventually creates a black hole, destroying what you're trying to measure. The European Research Council has funded a €10 million initiative on 'positive geometries' — mathematical structures outside space-time that can still make predictions within it, including the amplituhedron that simplifies Feynman diagram calculations dramatically.
Bilyeu draws on video game development to argue for the simulation metaphor: the universe 'only renders what is being measured,' mirrors game rendering efficiency, has a finite pixel size analogous to the Planck scale, and has a 'tick speed' analogous to game engine timing. He uses Minecraft's world being eight times the size of Earth yet processed on one or two chips to explain quantum non-locality.
Hoffman proposes that base reality consists of conscious observers — mathematically modeled as Markov chains — whose interactions generate space-time as an emergent phenomenon. He draws on Leibniz's monads and John Wheeler's 'observer-participants' as precursors. He argues these Markov chains are computationally universal (a superset of Turing machines), and that from them one can derive curved space-time, quantum field theory, and non-locality.
The two diverge on the nature of identity outside the headset. Bilyeu argues the 'you' is entirely a computational construct — an NPC — that is incoherent outside the headset, just as a video game character's code is meaningless outside the game. He uses the analogy of disassembling a Ferrari into a blender: the parts are the same but the thing no longer is. He also argues that radical changes to cognition (e.g., gaining a 190 IQ) would mean a different person entirely, and that chemicals can dissolve ego, undermining any stable 'you.'
Hoffman counters that humans transcend their avatars the way a game programmer transcends their code — we are not our bodies or our academic identities or our childhood attachments. He argues that just as we transcend our five-year-old selves (who cried over stolen sandbox toys), we transcend our current identities. He proposes one fundamental consciousness looking at itself from infinite perspectives through different avatars. He suggests that understanding the software layer beneath space-time will yield technologies that make current ones look like firecrackers — circumventing the speed of light, manipulating space-time directly, performing what would appear as miracles.
The conversation also touches on Alzheimer's disease as a case study: Bilyeu sees it as a destroyed headset, while Hoffman sees it as evidence that whoever we are transcends the biological apparatus. The discussion ends with Hoffman characterizing the conversation itself as one consciousness examining itself simultaneously through a 'Tom avatar' and a 'Don avatar.'
About this episode
<p>Welcome to Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu. In today’s mind-bending episode, Tom sits down with cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman, who challenges everything you think you know about reality, consciousness, and the very fabric of our universe. What if the world around us isn’t the fundamental base of existence, but rather, nothing more than a meticulously rendered simulation—an efficient computational interface, like a high-tech headset, designed to help us survive, not reveal the truth?Together, Tom and Donald dive deep into groundbreaking theories emerging from the frontlines of quantum physics and mathematics, including “positive geometries” and the idea that spacetime is not fundamental. They break down complex scientific concepts—like Markov chains and the hard problem of consciousness—into compelling metaphors drawn from video games, virtual reality, and computation.Throughout the conversation, they grapple with the illusion of free will, the meaning of “base reality,” and whether consciousness is ultimately all there is—hinting at a future where understanding the software outside the headset could make today’s technology look like child’s play. Whether you’re a skeptic, a seeker, or just driven by unending curiosity, you’re in for an episode that could forever shift your perception of what it means to be real.</p> <p><br /></p> <p><strong>What's up, everybody?</strong> <strong>It's Tom Bilyeu here:</strong></p> <p>If you want my help...</p> <ul> <li> <p>STARTING a business:<a href="https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show" target="_blank"> <u>join me here at ZERO TO FOUNDER</u></a><u>: </u></p> </li> <li> <p><a href="https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show" target="_blank"><u>https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show</u></a></p> </li> <li> <p><br /></p> </li> <li> <p>SCALING a business:<a href="https://tombilyeu.com/call" target="_blank"><strong> </strong><u>see if you qualify here.</u></a><u>: </u></p> </li> <li> <p><a href="https://tombilyeu.com/call" target="_blank"><u>https://tombilyeu.com/call</u></a></p> </li> <li> <p><br /></p> </li> </ul> <p>Get my battle-tested strategies and insights delivered weekly to your inbox:<a href="https://tombilyeu.com/" target="_blank"><strong> </strong><u>sign up here.</u></a><u>:</u></p> <p><a href="https://tombilyeu.com/" target="_blank"><u>https://tombilyeu.com/</u></a></p> <p>**********************************************************************</p> <p><strong>If you're serious about leveling up your life, I urge you to check out my new podcast,</strong><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/47VE90Cittmo6TGGFqg2xf" target="_blank"><u> </u><strong>Tom Bilyeu’s Mindset Playbook</strong></a> —a goldmine of my most impactful episodes on mindset, business, and health. Trust me, your future self will thank you.</p> <p>**********************************************************************</p> <p><strong>FOLLOW TOM:</strong></p> <p><strong>Instagram:</strong><a href="https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/" target="_blank"><strong> </strong><u>https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/</u></a></p> <p><strong>Tik Tok:</strong><a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en" target="_blank"><strong> </strong><u>https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en</u></a></p> <p><strong>Twitter:</strong><a href="https://twitter.com/tombilyeu" target="_blank"><strong> </strong><u>https://twitter.com/tombilyeu</u></a></p> <p><strong>YouTube:</strong><a href="https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu" target="_blank"><strong> </strong><u>https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu</u></a></p> <p><br /></p> <p><strong>Ketone IQ: </strong>Visit <a href="https://ketone.com/IMPACT" target="_blank"><u>https://ketone.com/IMPACT</u></a> for 30% OFF your subscription order<strong>Quince: </strong>Free shipping and 365-day returns at <a href="https://quince.com/impactpod" target="_blank"><u>https://quince.com/impactpod</u></a><strong>Monetary Metals: </strong>Future-proof your wealth at <a href="https://monetarymetals.com/impact" target="_blank"><u>https://monetarymetals.com/impact</u></a><strong>Truemed: </strong>Check your eligibility and start saving at <a href="https://truemed.com/impact" target="_blank"><u>https://truemed.com/impact</u></a><strong>AT&T Business: </strong>Switch to AT&T Business at <a href="http://business.att.com" target="_blank"><u>business.att.com</u></a><strong>Incogni: </strong>Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code IMPACT at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: <a href="https://incogni.com/impact" target="_blank"><u>https://incogni.com/impact</u></a><strong>Shopify:</strong> Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial period at <a href="https://shopify.com/impact" target="_blank"><u>https://shopify.com/impact</u></a><strong>Netsuite: </strong>Right now, get our free business guide, Demystifying AI, at <a href="https://netsuite.com/Theory" target="_blank"><u>https://NetSuite.com/Theory</u></a><strong>Quo: </strong>Try for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months at <a href="https://quo.com/impact" target="_blank"><u>https://quo.com/impact</u></a></p> <p><br /></p><p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://megaphone.fm/adchoices" target="_blank">megaphone.fm/adchoices</a></p><p>See Privacy Policy at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy</a> and California Privacy Notice at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info</a>.</p>
Key Insights
- Hoffman argues that space-time is provably non-fundamental because Einstein's own equations show it loses all operational meaning at the Planck scale — the very act of measuring destroys the thing being measured via black hole formation.
- Hoffman claims that positive geometries — mathematical structures entirely outside space-time — are already being used by physicists to simplify particle collision calculations, suggesting science is already beginning to operate beyond the space-time framework.
- Hoffman proposes that Markov chains (abstract probabilistic transition systems) are the correct mathematical model for conscious observers as base reality, and argues these are computationally universal — a superset of Turing machines.
- Bilyeu argues that the universe's tendency to 'only render what is measured' and its finite pixel-like Planck scale are not merely metaphors but functional parallels to how video game engines operate, pointing to a genuinely computational substrate.
- Hoffman contends that neurons and physical brain structures do not exist except in the moment of perception — they exist only in the headset experience of whoever is observing them, and are not independently real objects.
- Hoffman argues that understanding the software layer beneath space-time would yield technologies making current ones obsolete — specifically that it would allow circumventing the speed of light, since that law applies only inside the headset, not to the code generating it.
- Bilyeu argues that the concept of personal identity ('you') is incoherent outside the computational headset, analogizing a video game character whose code, extracted from the game, ceases to represent anything meaningful.
- Hoffman claims there is one fundamental consciousness that generates space-time and all its contents, and that individual human identities are temporary perspectives that consciousness takes on itself — with the Tom and Don avatars in the conversation being the same consciousness examining itself from two angles.
Topics
Transcript
We have not yet modeled the observer that's collecting the data in science. So under Newtonian physics, you ignore the observer. In Einstein, you talk about the observer because the observer is reduced to clocks and measurement pointers. In quantum theory, now the observer becomes front and center because there are two different regimes in quantum theory. There's a unitary evolution when no one's looking, when you don't observe, and then there's what they call the collapse of the wave function when you observe. So all of a sudden in quantum mechanics, the observer comes front and center, but quantum theory has no universally accepted model of the observer, and we haven't had it for now a century. Donald Hoffman,…
Full transcript available for MurmurCast members
Sign Up to AccessMore from Tom Bilyeu's Impact Theory
From Family Tragedy to Dollar Wars: Lindsay Clancy’s tragic familicide, Canada’s declining economic policies and Authoritarianism in Global Powers like China
Tom Dillew discusses the Lindsay Clancy familicide case and how public empathy has eclipsed accountability, contrasts this with declining Canadian economic policies under Trudeau and Carney, and analyzes geopolitical tensions including CIA visits to Russia and economic sanctions on Iran.
Why a DYING China Is More Dangerous Than a Rising One
A video essay argues that China's demographic collapse and population decline make it more dangerous than a rising China, as the closing window of opportunity may push authoritarian leaders toward military aggression like the 2027 Taiwan invasion target. The discussion explores how the One Child Policy, female education, and birth control have created irreversible population trends affecting not just China but most developed nations.
Deglobalization Dangers, Bond Market Chaos, and Why Canada Is Betting on China
The episode covers multiple geopolitical and economic crises including bond market volatility, US-Canada trade tensions over China relations, Iran sanctions effectiveness, Israel-Syria strikes, and a viral Mark Ruffalo tweet about antisemitism and Israel criticism, while discussing underlying themes of deglobalization, currency collapse dynamics, and the rise of a multipolar world.
The Charlie Kirk Debate, Ro Khanna vs Mark Cuban, 2020 Voter Fraud Has Been Found | Weekly Recap
This episode discusses the Candace Owens vs. Andrew Wilson debate on the Charlie Kirk case, analyzed through the lens of debate tactics and frame of reference theory. It also covers Census Bureau findings on non-citizen voting, California's wealth tax proposal, and economic policy impacts on business and youth employment.
Don't Fear the Demise: Raoul Pal's Playbook for the Exponential Age
Raoul Pal presents an optimistic thesis on AI as the ultimate technology that will drive exponential economic growth through Reed's Law (a double exponential), arguing that massive capital expenditure, velocity of money, and productivity gains will allow debt to be managed without traditional inflation. He contends that concerns about valuation metrics and risk are overblown given the transformative nature of AI and its infinite addressable market.