Has Genetic Engineering Has Gone Too Far? | Jamie Hetzl (Replay)
Jamie Metzl discusses genetic engineering, embryo selection, and human genome editing in "Hacking Darwin," exploring how humanity is transitioning from passive evolution to actively directing our genetic future. He emphasizes the need for global governance frameworks and inclusive democratic processes to manage these powerful technologies responsibly, while acknowledging the inevitable competition between nations that will drive adoption regardless of ethical concerns.
Summary
Jamie Metzl, author of "Hacking Darwin," explains that humanity has acquired god-like powers to read, write, and hack the code of life through technologies like CRISPR gene editing and embryo selection. Unlike our ancestors who viewed biology as something that simply happened, we now have the ability to fundamentally transform human evolution, healthcare, reproduction, and our species' trajectory.
Metzl distinguishes between therapeutic interventions (treating single-gene mutation disorders like sickle cell disease) and enhancement modifications (improving intelligence, athleticism, longevity). He argues there's no natural line between therapy and enhancement, using examples like increasing height from one foot to six feet. The crucial principle is cost-benefit analysis: any intervention that changes the foundations of human biology carries unknown risks alongside potential benefits.
The book's central premise is that people from 1,000 years in the future would be dramatically different from us—not through natural evolution but through intentional embryo selection from thousands of options and targeted genetic edits. This represents a fundamental shift in how humans shape their own evolution. Metzl emphasizes we're only at about 4-5% understanding of human biology, making conservative approaches essential.
Metzl uses the chicken egg-laying analogy to explain selective breeding: breeders don't need to understand genetics to create dramatic changes over generations. Similarly, future humans will select embryos based on genetic potential, exponentially accelerating evolutionary change. He notes that current athletes are already genetic outliers; we just haven't been able to "look under the hood" until now.
On the question of whether we'll see genetic modification, Metzl points to the inevitable competition between nation-states. Even if one country commits to restraint, others won't, creating a tragedy-of-the-commons scenario. He cites He Jiankui's creation of the first CRISPR-edited babies in China as irresponsible, but acknowledges that restraint is temporary—someone else would have done it within 5-10 years, hopefully more carefully.
Metzl advocates for global governance frameworks without imposing blanket bans. His approach includes: open environments for basic science (avoiding suppression of research); transparent, inclusive public processes rather than expert-only decision-making; regulatory infrastructures like the UK's Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority that thoughtfully weigh costs and benefits; and defined societal red lines (like preventing eugenic practices or human experimentation).
On individual autonomy, Metzl supports people making genetic modifications to themselves, but within regulated safety guardrails similar to pharmaceutical approval. However, germline (heritable) modifications affect everyone downstream, making them collective decisions. He co-founded One Shared World to address the global collective action problem—our shared challenges are planetary while our governance structures remain national.
Metzl explores speculative futures where different societies optimize for different traits, creating specialized human populations. He imagines Athens-like societies prioritizing outliers and superstars versus more uniform approaches. He predicts oscillation toward uniformity (because parents want their children to have advantages) then back toward diversity (because everyone else does the same thing, negating competitive advantage).
On life extension, Metzl argues immortality is worth striving for, though he doubts indefinite lifespan is achievable in current human biology due to accumulated mutations and system complexity. However, extending healthy lifespan through slowing aging is genuinely promising through approaches like metabolism reduction (metformin, rapamycin, NMN). He personally uses lifestyle approaches rather than experimental drugs, preferring to be the 50,000th person trying an intervention rather than the first.
Metzl recommends freezing sperm and eggs young (around peak reproductive ages: 20 for men, 25 for women) because mutations accumulate with age. Even if not needed, the downside is minimal compared to the potential upside. He predicts humanity will move toward less reproduction through sexual intercourse and more through intentional genetic selection.
The conversation emphasizes that science fiction increasingly feels like science fact because exponential technological advancement outpaces human intuition. Metzl argues we need to think like science fiction to understand real implications. The core tension is between wanting to avoid the dangers of genetic engineering and the impossibility of preventing global adoption—creating pressure toward participation even for reluctant nations.
About this episode
<p>On this episode of Conversations with Tom, Jamie Hetzl talks about the future of genetic engineering, the moral questions surrounding it, and the kinds of values he hopes we uphold while charting the course of our own evolution. He and Tom also discuss culture wars, science fiction and the potential problems with immortality. </p><p><br /></p><p>[Original air date: 9-3-20]. </p><p><br /></p><p><strong>SHOW NOTES:</strong></p><p>Jamie discusses his book Hacking Darwin and how we can now influence evolution [0:26] </p><p>Jamie forecasts what we will evolve into a thousand years from now [2:20] </p><p>Jamie tells the story of natural evolution [5:29] </p><p>Jamie talks about how we will be able to eliminate genetic diseases [9:05] </p><p>Real science that’s happening now feels like science fiction [14:01] </p><p>At first genetic modifications will seem shocking, but then they’ll become normal [16:58] </p><p>Do we really want natural people, or do we want steroids and genetic modifications? [19:56] </p><p>Jamie tries to figure out where we should draw the line on genetic modification [23:53] </p><p>Jamie discusses the moral difficulties with genetic modification [27:03] </p><p>Jamie talks about to what extent we should protect people from themselves [31:30] </p><p>Jamie advocates being conservative at first about genetic modification [35:19] </p><p>Jamie and Tom discuss potential problems with gene editing [39:28] </p><p>Jamie and Tom discuss the reality that we will have to embrace gene editing [44:00] </p><p>Jamie discusses why we have to think collectively on a global level [51:20] </p><p>Jamie talks about science fiction and changing definitions of “us” and “them” [55:35] </p><p>Because the world is so complex rules may not work, but values still will [59:49] </p><p>What should a written “constitution” of gene editing look like? [1:05:45] </p><p>Jamie describes how genetic editing and selection might look in the future [1:12:01] </p><p>Will we tend towards uniformity or diversity? [1:17:36] </p><p>Jamie thinks immortality is not achievable in the physical bodies we have [1:22:25] </p><p>Humans don’t live forever because there are too many parts [1:25:25] </p><p>Tom and Jamie discuss the connections between procreation and mortality [1:29:38] </p><p>Should you slow down your metabolism? Should you freeze sperm? [1:35:27] </p><p><br /></p><p><strong>FOLLOW JAMIE: </strong></p><p>WEBSITE: jamiemetzl.com/</p><p>INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/jamiemetzl/ </p><p>FACEBOOK: facebook.com/jamiemetzlauthor/ </p><p>TWITTER: twitter.com/JamieMetzl</p><p><br /></p><p><strong>FOLLOW TOM:</strong></p><p>Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/</p><p>Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en</p><p>Twitter: https://twitter.com/tombilyeu</p><p>YouTube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu</a></p><p><br /></p><p><strong>What's up, everybody?</strong> It's Tom Bilyeu here. If you're serious about leveling up your life, I urge you to check out my new podcast,<a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/47VE90Cittmo6TGGFqg2xf" target="_blank"> <strong>Tom Bilyeu’s Mindset Playbook</strong></a> —<strong>a goldmine of my most impactful episodes on mindset, business, and health.</strong> Trust me, your future self will thank you.</p><p><br /></p><p><strong>LISTEN AD FREE + BONUS EPISODES on APPLE PODCASTS</strong>: <a href="http://apple.co/impacttheory" target="_blank">apple.co/impacttheory</a></p><p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://megaphone.fm/adchoices" target="_blank">megaphone.fm/adchoices</a></p><p>See Privacy Policy at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy</a> and California Privacy Notice at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info</a>.</p>
Key Insights
- Metzl argues that humans have acquired capabilities that used to be imagined as divine—the ability to read, write, and hack the code of life—fundamentally shifting from passive biological inheritance to active evolutionary direction.
- The author contends there is no natural boundary between therapeutic genetic interventions (treating disease) and enhancement modifications (improving traits), using the example of height correction where any threshold chosen is arbitrary.
- Metzl claims that we understand only about 4-5% of human biology, making all genetic interventions carry unknown risks alongside potential benefits, requiring deep caution despite potential upsides.
- The author argues that embryo selection from thousands of options will have exponential evolutionary effects within a few generations, mirroring how selective breeding transformed chickens from laying one egg monthly to daily without genetic knowledge.
- Metzl asserts that genetic engineering of humans is inevitable globally because nations cannot unilaterally restrain themselves—if one country refuses enhancement, others won't, creating a competitive race to avoid obsolescence.
- The author maintains that germline (heritable) genetic modifications are fundamentally different from somatic interventions because they affect all future descendants, making them inherently collective decisions rather than purely individual choices.
- Metzl argues that modern athletes are already genetic outliers (for height, lung capacity, bone density), but we've lacked the ability to identify this; future enhancement will simply make the selection intentional rather than accidental.
- The author contends that societies will likely optimize for similar traits (intelligence, health, longevity) due to social pressures, but oscillation toward uniformity will eventually create competitive disadvantage, generating countervailing pressure toward diversity.
- Metzl claims that extending healthy human lifespan through slowing aging is more promising than treating specific diseases like cancer, since aging-related diseases account for most human mortality and aging appears biologically amenable to intervention.
- The author argues that the challenge of global cooperation on genetic technology is a manifestation of the same collective action problem preventing solutions to climate change, pandemic preparedness, and weapons proliferation.
- Metzl asserts that fully uploading consciousness to achieve digital immortality is unlikely to preserve personal identity because consciousness is deeply integrated with biological experience, particularly neurochemistry and bodily feedback systems.
- The author maintains that defining red lines (prohibitions on certain genetic practices) is appropriate for society, citing historical precedent from Nuremberg trials, even while accepting that many enhancement applications will eventually become normalized.
Topics
Transcript
Everybody, welcome to another episode of conversations with Tom. I'm here with Jamie Metzl. Jamie, I am super excited to talk to you about your book, Hacking Darwin. As I said, I was completely captivated by that book and what's possible with the human genome and all that good stuff. So man, welcome to the show. Thanks, Tom. Really happy to be here. So man, welcome to the show. Thanks, Tom. Really happy to be here. Cool. We'll give the listeners a just super quick thumbnail sketch of what hacking Darwin is about and cause this is as opposed to some of the science fiction stuff you've done, this is all science fact, right? So what was it that made…
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