#327 Josh Howerton - "In 50 Years, China Will Have More Christians Than America"
Pastor Josh Howerton discusses Christianity's resilience against cultural opposition, explaining the spiritual warfare behind persecution of the faith. He emphasizes forgiveness as essential to spiritual freedom, distinguishing it from reconciliation, and shares his approach to parenting, pastoral leadership, and maintaining integrity amid platform growth.
Summary
In this episode, Sean Ryan interviews Pastor Josh Howerton, senior pastor of Lake Point Church in Dallas with approximately 30,000 members. The conversation covers multiple layers of faith, theology, and practical spirituality.
Howerton begins by explaining why Christianity is uniquely targeted for disparagement, arguing that the Bible itself predicts this. He references the inherent conflict in Scripture between God's word and worldly systems, noting that Satan, described as the god of this world, wages war against Christ and Christians specifically. He points to the alignment of progressive movements with anti-Christian positions despite ideological contradictions, suggesting an underlying spiritual principle: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
The discussion moves into Islamic theology and end-times prophecy. Howerton argues that Islam represents a fulfillment of biblical warnings about a false gospel delivered by an angel of light. He draws parallels between Islamic Mahdi eschatology and Christian descriptions of the Antichrist, noting specific similarities including a seven-year peace treaty, a one-world government headquartered in Jerusalem, and the persecution of Jews. While cautious about definitive interpretations, he emphasizes having an open Bible and awareness.
Addressing Christianity's apparent decline in America while growing globally, particularly in China and Africa, Howerton suggests the tide may be turning as people lose faith in secular institutions and search for concrete truth. He attributes rising baptisms and church attendance among young people to disillusionment with government, media, and cultural institutions that have proven unreliable.
The central theological discussion focuses on forgiveness and justice. Howerton emphasizes that forgiveness and justice are not contradictory—forgiveness is personal and one-directional (requiring only the forgiver), while justice belongs to the state according to Romans 13. He explains that unforgiveness is portrayed in Scripture as demonic and creates internal spiritual prisons. His practical method involves creating a "debt ledger" of specific wrongs, inventorying what was taken, and then choosing to cancel the debt through Christ's sacrifice rather than holding onto it.
Howerton addresses why Jesus had to die on the cross through an extended parable about a king whose daughter stole from the treasury. The king must be just (punishment must fall) and loving (the daughter must be spared). The resolution is that the king takes the punishment himself, simultaneously satisfying justice and enabling mercy—a metaphor for Christ's substitutionary sacrifice.
On passing faith to the next generation, Howerton rejects the idea that perfect parenting guarantees faithful children (citing Adam and Eve as a counterexample). Instead, he emphasizes three principles: faith must be real, not perfect; parents should pull children up into their world of godliness rather than descending into their world of foolishness; and storytelling about God's work in the world creates cultural transmission of faith.
Howerton addresses misconceptions about megachurch pastors, providing examples of prominent pastors who reverse-tithe (keeping 10% and giving 90%), anonymously fund adoptions, and prioritize service over fame. He explains the structural reality that large churches require delegation through trained staff and deacons, following the Acts 6 model, rather than personal pastoral care for every member.
Finally, he discusses his favorite miracle—Jesus healing a leper by touching him—because it reverses Old Testament law: instead of uncleanness transferring to the clean person, Christ's cleanness transfers to the unclean, symbolizing how faith in Christ makes believers clean.
About this episode
Josh Howerton is the Senior Pastor of Lakepointe Church, one of the largest churches in the United States. Known for his thoughtful biblical teaching and willingness to engage difficult cultural issues, he has become a leading voice on faith, leadership, marriage, and Christian apologetics. Through his preaching, writing, and podcast appearances, Josh equips Christians to think critically, live faithfully, and navigate today's cultural challenges with biblical conviction. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: Go to https://helixsleep.com/SRS for up to 20% off sitewide. Go right now to https://sundaysfordogs.com/SRS50 and get 50% off your first order. Or, you can use code SRS50 at checkout. Get 30% off your first subscription order at https://armra.com/srs or enter code SRS at checkout. For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off FOR LIFE, Free Shipping, AND 3 Free Gifts at Mars Men at https://Mengotomars.com. Try ZipRecruiter for FREE today at https://ziprecruiter.com/SRS and meet great candidates who’ll go the extra step for your job. Josh Howerton Links: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/josh_howerton Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HowertonJosh X - https://x.com/howertonjosh Website - https://lakepointe.church Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Key Insights
- Howerton argues that the Bible itself predicts Christianity will be uniquely persecuted because Satan is the god of this world's systems and specifically wages war against Christ and Christians.
- He claims that seemingly opposing ideological movements (progressivism and Islam) align against Christianity based on the principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend,' suggesting an underlying spiritual coordination against the faith.
- Howerton interprets Muhammad's encounter with an angel in a cave as potentially fulfilling biblical warnings about Satan masquerading as an angel of light to present a false gospel.
- He identifies specific parallels between Islamic Mahdi theology and Christian descriptions of the Antichrist, including a seven-year peace treaty, one-world government from Jerusalem, and Jewish persecution.
- Howerton observes that while Christianity has declined in Western nations, it is exploding in Africa, the global South, and Asia, with projections suggesting more Christians in China than America within 50 years.
- He attributes rising youth church engagement and baptisms not to organized outreach but to generational disillusionment with failed government, media, and institutional promises.
- Howerton distinguishes between forgiveness (one-directional, always possible) and reconciliation (requiring two willing parties), arguing these are not the same concept.
- He claims unforgiveness functions as a demonic portal into the soul and creates an internal spiritual prison, citing biblical connections between bitterness and demonic activity.
- Howerton's practical forgiveness method involves creating a debt ledger of specific wrongs, inventorying what was stolen, and then choosing to cancel the debt rather than hold vengeance.
- He uses the parable of a king taking punishment for his daughter's crime to explain how Christ simultaneously satisfies divine justice and enables divine mercy through substitutionary sacrifice.
- Howerton rejects the promise that perfect parenting guarantees faithful children, citing Adam and Eve as proof that perfect father, perfect children, and perfect environment can still produce rebellion.
- He argues that fathers should pull children up into their world of godliness rather than descending into their world of foolishness, a strategy his own father employed.
- Howerton states that storytelling about God's work is a biblical discipleship strategy, referencing the Ebenezer stones as cultural memory devices for transmitting faith across generations.
- He claims that prominent megachurch pastors often live counter to stereotypes, with examples of reverse-tithing (90% giving), anonymous adoptions funding, and prioritizing servant work over fame.
- Howerton interprets the leper healing miracle as uniquely demonstrating reversal of Old Testament law—Christ's cleanness transfers to the unclean rather than uncleanness contaminating the clean—as a symbol of redemptive transformation.
Topics
Transcript
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