#323 Annie Jacobsen - Is America Ready for Biological War?
Pulitzer Prize finalist Annie Jacobsen discusses her book 'Biological Warfare: A Scenario,' explaining how biological weapons pose a greater overall threat than nuclear weapons according to the Defense Department, the speed at which an outbreak could lead to societal collapse, and the government's classified plans for continuity of government called 'devolution' in the aftermath of a catastrophic biological event.
Summary
Annie Jacobsen, investigative journalist and author of 'Biological Warfare: A Scenario,' appears on The Sean Ryan Show to discuss the threats posed by biological weapons and the government's classified contingency plans. She explains that while biological weapons are illegal under the Biological Weapons Convention, the Defense Department considers them the greatest overall threat among weapons of mass destruction due to the low barrier to entry—even high school students with basic biology knowledge can theoretically create bioweapons through genetic modification.
Jacobsen outlines three basic components for understanding biological threats: transmissibility (how it spreads), virulence (deadliness), and medical countermeasures (treatments available). She uses pneumonic plague as her scenario's pathogen because it has a 100% case fatality rate if untreated and because Soviet defectors revealed the USSR created a genetically modified plague weapon designed to defeat antibiotics and trigger encephalitis in the brain of those who took the antibiotics.
The conversation covers 'gain of function' research—the genetic modification of pathogens ostensibly for defensive purposes—and the dual-use dilemma: the same technology that creates medical countermeasures can be weaponized. She discusses how COVID exposed failures in government communication, noting the CDC and WHO incorrectly stated COVID was not airborne for months, destroying public trust without ever admitting the error.
A major focus is the classified 'devolution' plan, signed off on by former FEMA director Craig Fugate during the Obama administration. This plan calls for a pre-designated list of government officials to be moved to secret bunker sites ('hot sites,' 'warm sites,' 'cold sites') to maintain government continuity after anarchy and insurrection occur in the 6-day window between outbreak and societal collapse. The president would be isolated in a remote cold site with only military aides and Secret Service.
Jacobsen explains that in a catastrophic biological event, the military would be deployed under the Insurrection Act, overriding posse comitatus, and would be tasked with protecting critical infrastructure (electrical grid, water systems, nuclear plants, communication networks) and the bunker sites housing devolution personnel. With only 1.7 million gas masks for military personnel and 340 million Americans, she describes an inevitable scenario of widespread panic, resource scarcity, and people 'doing inhuman things to each other just to survive' (quoting former Senator Tom Daschle).
She reveals that Los Angeles—despite being a major metropolitan area—has only 100,000 bottles of Cipro (antibiotic) stored, distributed poorly across government agencies, and that the city fire commissioner told her Los Angeles is 'completely unprepared' for a pneumonic plague attack. She also notes an 800,000-person gap in disease surveillance: homeless populations aren't tracked by the CDC's National Syndromic Surveillance System, making them a potential undetected vector for disease spread.
The discussion touches on the rise of biosafety level 4 labs globally—from 2 before 9/11 to 17 in America and 110 worldwide, with 3,500 BSL-3 labs globally, 90% of which have no safety protocols—and the DNA collection through companies like Ancestry.com and 23andMe, raising concerns about potential bioweapons designed to target specific genetic populations (which Admiral Brett Giroir confirmed is theoretically possible).
Jacobsen argues that terminology matters: calling unfounded claims 'conspiracy theories' shuts down discussion, whereas 'speculative narrative' keeps conversations open. She emphasizes the importance of transparency, admitting errors, and learning from COVID's mistakes rather than engaging in tribal denial. She concludes that while the government has prepared itself with devolution protocols, it has done little to prepare the public, and the solution requires public awareness, diagnostic infrastructure, and sustained political will to prevent gain-of-function research and improve biosafety oversight.
About this episode
Annie Jacobsen is a Pulitzer Prize finalist, investigative journalist, and bestselling author known for her in-depth reporting on national security, intelligence, military history, and classified government programs. She is the author of several acclaimed books, including Nuclear War: A Scenario, Area 51, Operation Paperclip, The Pentagon's Brain, and Surprise, Kill, Vanish. Drawing on extensive interviews with military leaders, intelligence officials, scientists, and policymakers, her work explores some of the most secretive aspects of the U.S. government, from Cold War programs and covert operations to modern nuclear strategy and emerging global threats. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: Ready to upgrade your eyewear? Check them out at https://roka.com and use code SRS for 20% off sitewide. Get 10% off at https://tecovas.com/SRS when you sign up for email and texts. See site for details. Get 30% off your first subscription order at https://armra.com/srs or enter code SRS at checkout. Go to https://helixsleep.com/SRS for 27% off sitewide, exclusive for listeners of the Shawn Ryan Show. Visit https://drinkag1.com/SRS to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1 Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies last. Go to https://meetfabric.com/SHAWN and apply today, risk-free. Annie Jacobsen Links: Purchase Biological Ware - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/783250/biological-war-by-annie-jacobsen Website - https://www.anniejacobsen.com X - https://x.com/AnnieJacobsen Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/anniejacobsenbooks Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/AnnieJacobsenAuthor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Key Insights
- The Defense Department ranks biological weapons as a greater overall threat than nuclear weapons despite their illegality under international treaty, because the barrier to entry is extremely low—high school students with basic biology knowledge can theoretically create them through genetic modification.
- A biological attack with an airborne pathogen could progress from outbreak to complete societal anarchy and insurrection in just 6 days, compared to 72 minutes for nuclear war escalation according to StratCOM.
- The classified 'devolution' plan establishes pre-designated government personnel who would be moved to secret bunker sites to maintain government continuity after a catastrophic biological event, with the president isolated in a remote location with military aides and the nuclear football.
- Soviet defectors revealed the USSR created a genetically modified plague bioweapon specifically designed to defeat antibiotics and trigger fatal encephalitis in people who took the antibiotics—making the medical countermeasure itself lethal.
- The CDC and WHO incorrectly stated for months that COVID was not airborne when it demonstrably was, and never publicly admitted this fundamental error, permanently damaging public trust in disease surveillance institutions.
- Los Angeles, a city of 4 million people, possesses only 100,000 bottles of Cipro antibiotics poorly distributed across various government agencies, with the fire commissioner stating the city is completely unprepared for a pneumonic plague attack.
- An 800,000-person homeless population in America is not tracked by the CDC's National Syndromic Surveillance System, creating a major blind spot in disease detection that epidemiologists warn could be an ideal vector for undetected pathogen spread.
- The number of biosafety level 4 labs in America increased from 2 before 9/11 to 17 today, while globally there are 110 BSL-4 labs and 3,500 BSL-3 labs, with 90% of the BSL-3 labs having no formal safety protocols.
- Genetic engineering can theoretically create bioweapons targeting specific genetic populations, which Admiral Brett Giroir, the assistant secretary of HHS during COVID, confirmed is scientifically possible with suspicions that China is pursuing this capability.
- The military would be deployed under the Insurrection Act during a biological catastrophe, overriding posse comitatus restrictions, but with only 1.7 million gas masks for 340 million Americans, widespread civilian casualties from panic and resource scarcity are inevitable.
- HHS (Department of Health and Human Services), which most Americans have never heard of, would be in charge of responding to a biological incident despite having a budget twice that of the Defense Department and being responsible for CDC, NIH, and FDA.
- Gain-of-function research—genetic modification of pathogens ostensibly for defensive purposes—creates a dual-use dilemma where the same technology that develops medical countermeasures can be weaponized by adversaries or terrorists.
- The 2018 war game scenario showed CDC and government officials planning to prevent migrant boats from reaching U.S. shores during a pandemic outbreak in South America, with unclear rules of engagement regarding shooting at civilians.
- Most initial COVID cases in New York City came from Italy, not Wuhan, as confirmed through genetic testing, demonstrating how quickly pathogens spread globally and how travel restrictions are ineffective once initial cases reach major cities.
- The term 'conspiracy theory,' created by the CIA, has become a rhetorical tool that prevents government institutions from admitting errors and learning from failures, whereas using 'speculative narrative' keeps discussions open to evidence-based reassessment.
Topics
Transcript
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