Black-ish Creator Kenya Barris On Turning Down A $100 Million Netflix Deal, The Cost of Success & Curiosity As A Superpower With Malcolm Gladwell
Malcolm Gladwell and Kenya Barris discuss their friendship, creative philosophies, and the evolving media landscape in a conversation about building empires, protecting creative vision, and adapting to changing industry dynamics. They explore how curiosity, authenticity, and voice are essential for success, while examining how streaming platforms, brand partnerships, and the creator economy are reshaping entertainment.
Summary
Malcolm Gladwell and Kenya Barris, co-hosts of the Audible original podcast 'The Unusual Suspects,' sit down with host Rich Roll to discuss their backgrounds, creative processes, and perspectives on the transforming media industry. Barris shares his journey from Pacoima to building a major entertainment empire—detailing his mother's entrepreneurial wisdom about real estate, his transformative time at Atlanta's Clark Atlanta University, and how he transitioned from medicine to screenwriting after discovering his comedic voice. He emphasizes that his ability to "put out fires" comes from growing up in a chaotic household, which forced him to develop resilience and observational skills. Gladwell reflects on how Barris's work influenced his own thinking about storytelling and curiosity—noting that he exercises his blackness vicariously through his friend's extensive network and deep connections to Black culture in Hollywood. The conversation explores how both men protect their creative vision by remaining private about unfinished projects, with Barris cautiously discussing his belief in manifestation and negative energy, while maintaining that public discussion of upcoming work can jinx it. A pivotal moment in Barris's career involved turning down a significant Netflix deal to take a 50% ownership stake in a studio at ViacomCBS instead. Though this gamble initially seemed disastrous—particularly during the pandemic, writer's strike, his father's COVID death, and divorce—he survived through maintaining relationships and producing quality work. Gladwell and Barris discuss how traditional media institutions have changed fundamentally. The old system rewarded institutional loyalty; now, success requires entrepreneurial thinking and personal branding. They examine how streaming platforms like Netflix have become "vanilla" by trying to serve everyone, creating opportunities for more distinctive voices. Taylor Sheridan's massive deal and success is cited as exemplary—he maintains control by staying on his ranch in Texas rather than moving to Los Angeles, shooting most of his projects there and profiting multiple ways. The conversation turns to how brands and family offices are becoming modern-day patrons of the arts, funding original content rather than traditional studio models. YouTube is identified as potentially more powerful than traditional streamers, and both men believe in a return to the salon model where wealthy entities protect and foster emerging talent. Barris emphasizes the importance of having something meaningful to say—noting that high-concept ideas mean nothing without a substantive message. He cites Dean Daly's viral film format video and Ryan Coogler's work as examples of creators who subvert expectations while maintaining authenticity. Barris describes his upcoming Paramount reimagining of "The Truman Show" set in an alternate 1619 where slavery never happened, using that premise to explore themes of reality, perception, and lived experience in the hood. The hosts discuss podcasting's evolution from niche to mainstream, noting how video has become nearly essential and how podcasts now serve as testing grounds for bigger projects—like magazine articles once did. Gladwell explains how his podcast functions as a minor league to develop ideas later expanded into books. Barris advocates for reviving magazine culture through podcast formats because of their purer form of communication. Both men stress that voice, authenticity, and having something genuine to say are non-negotiable in the current media landscape, regardless of platform.
About this episode
Malcolm Gladwell is a journalist and bestselling author. Kenya Barris is a writer, producer, and the creator of Black-ish. Together they host the Audible Original podcast The Unusual Suspects. This conversation explores opposite approaches to storytelling. Kenya mines his own life, while Malcolm leaves his out entirely. We discuss Kenya's Inglewood upbringing, finding your voice, Richard Pryor walking off a Vegas stage, the $100 million Netflix deal Kenya walked away from, the shifting tectonic plates of media, and more. These two are a treat together. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: WHOOP: Join now and get one month free👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://stories.rivian.com/richroll Go Brewing: Get 50% OFF your first subscription order to Go Brewing's Beer Club👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com/richroll50 Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Key Insights
- Barris claims his ability to manage crises stems directly from growing up in a chaotic household, where he learned to filter negativity into humor and observational skill rather than developing the skill later in life
- Gladwell argues that he lives vicariously through Barris's blackness because his own life in the Hudson Valley keeps him separated from Black cultural institutions and networks that Barris naturally inhabits
- Barris believes that speaking publicly about unfinished creative projects can jinx them, operating under a conviction that manifesting works both positively and negatively depending on what is spoken into existence
- Both men contend that Netflix's evolution into trying to serve everyone has made the platform lose its distinctive voice, transforming it into the 'CBS of streamers' rather than maintaining its revolutionary identity
- Barris argues that the old Hollywood success model of being dishonest and full of hubris is being replaced by a model where integrity and authentic relationships are what actually sustain long-term careers
- Gladwell observes that when institutional safety nets disappear from industries, the traits required for success fundamentally change—entrepreneurialism becomes necessary rather than optional
- Barris contends that young creators must have something substantive to say beyond high-concept ideas, claiming that a cool premise without meaningful message is essentially empty
- Both men agree that brands and family offices will increasingly replace traditional studios as patrons of the arts, funding original content as a form of cultural and marketing legacy building
- Barris claims that keeping a small circle of friends and maintaining privacy about personal life is connected to his shyness, which contradicts his public persona but protects his creative wellspring
- Gladwell argues that podcasts now serve the function that magazine articles once did in the 1970s and 1980s—as training grounds where ideas are tested before expansion into larger formats like books
- Barris asserts that staying in one location (like Taylor Sheridan remaining in Texas or M. Night Shyamalan staying in Pennsylvania) provides more control and financial benefit than operating within the Hollywood monoculture
- Both men claim that subverting audience expectations about who is delivering a message—rather than what the message is—can actually amplify the impact and reach of that message
Topics
Transcript
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