Stop Wasting Your Energy: How to Deal With People Who Won’t Change & What to Do Instead
Dr. Dolly Chug, a Harvard-educated social psychologist, explains why people resist change and how to inspire it through modeling, inviting, and rewarding rather than pushing. She introduces the concept of two mental 'bodyguards'—energy and ego—that protect us from change, and discusses practical frameworks like the 1-to-10 rule and behavior-based feedback to improve relationships and personal growth.
Summary
Mel Robbins interviews Dr. Dolly Chug about the science behind why people won't change and how to effectively influence behavior change in people we care about. Dr. Chug explains that our minds have two protective mechanisms she calls 'bodyguards': the energy bodyguard conserves mental effort by keeping most of our cognition on autopilot (11 million small thoughts versus 40 big conscious thoughts), and the ego bodyguard protects our sense of identity and self-worth. Together, these mechanisms resist change because change requires unlearning existing patterns and threatening our core identity.
A central theme is the distinction between 'good people' and 'goodish people.' Being a 'good person' is a static identity where we judge ourselves harshly if we fall short, leading to defensiveness and an exhausting cycle of proving ourselves. Being 'goodish' means accepting that growth is ongoing, mistakes are learning opportunities, and we evaluate ourselves on improvement rather than perfection. This shift from proving to improving reduces exhaustion and shame.
Dr. Chug demonstrates the 'Stroop test' with Mel to illustrate what unlearning feels like—the friction and resistance we experience when trying to override automatic behaviors. Understanding this empathy is crucial when asking others to change, as we often expect others to change easily while struggling with our own transformations.
On influencing others, Dr. Chug emphasizes three realistic approaches: modeling (demonstrating change yourself first), inviting (creating conditions where people want to change without losing agency), and rewarding (acknowledging attempts and progress). She contrasts 'pushing' (directing, forcing) with 'pulling' (creating desire through conditions). The Gandhi story illustrates modeling—he waited two weeks to give advice about sugar because he was still eating it himself.
For feedback, Dr. Chug stresses using behavior-based language rather than adjectives. Instead of saying someone is 'unprofessional' or 'careless,' describe the specific behavior observed (e.g., 'I noticed inconsistent client names on slides'). This removes defensiveness and makes feedback actionable.
The '1-to-10 rule' is introduced as a tool for assessing true priorities. People often hear everything as urgent (a 10), so clarifying importance helps manage expectations and conflict. Mel applies this with her son's friends leaving messy bunks—her 10 was feeling heard and respected, not the physical tidiness itself.
The 'heard, hugged, helped, high-five' framework helps determine what people actually need when they come to you—sometimes they want to vent, sometimes emotional support, sometimes practical advice, and sometimes recognition for their effort. Asking rather than assuming prevents unhelpful advice-giving.
Dr. Chug addresses the distinction between supporting and enabling. Supporting someone means allowing them to face consequences and reckon with their decisions, which is often painful but necessary for growth. Enabling means cushioning people from consequences, which prevents them from hitting the 'edge' where real change becomes necessary.
The episode concludes with two practices: 'shout outs' (noticing and expressing what people do well) and 'own it' (taking accountability when you don't show up). Leaders and parents should model both—praising effort while also demonstrating accountability for their own missteps.
Throughout, the central insight is that we're often harder on ourselves than anyone else, which makes us overly critical of others. The path forward involves self-compassion, understanding that change is hard for everyone, and shifting from proving worth to improving continuously.
About this episode
There’s someone in your life you wish would change. You’ve pushed, reminded, and given advice. You’ve had the same conversation over and over. And somehow, you’re still stuck in the same frustrating cycle of fighting, nagging, lecturing, and hoping they’ll finally do something differently. There is a better way. In today’s conversation, Mel sits down with renowned behavioral scientist and award-winning NYU professor Dr. Dolly Chugh to unpack the surprising science of why people resist change and what really works. You’re going to walk away with some of the most powerful, research-backed tools Dr. Chugh teaches at NYU – tools that will change how you see difficult people, frustrating relationships, and your own ability to influence how others behave. You’ll learn: -The 3 things that really do help when someone you love won’t change -The simple question to ask before giving advice – so it doesn’t backfire -The 4-option question that reveals what someone needs from you in a difficult moment -The relationship tool that keeps small problems from turning into 10-out-of-10 fights -How to tell when “helping” someone is keeping them stuck -The 2 “bodyguards” in your brain that explain why you know better but still don’t do better -Why your brain can fight change even when you desperately want it -The surprising role “unlearning” plays in changing a habit or behavior If you’re exhausted from trying to change someone you love, this conversation will give you a different way forward – starting today – that feels lighter, more hopeful, and extremely doable. Your relationships will never be the same. And neither will you. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked this episode, listen to this one next: How to Become More Confident, Influential, and Communicate Better With #1 Harvard Business Professor Mel also wants to tell you: Try the 23g protein shot I drink every single morning Join 2 million readers loving my weekly newsletter - full of tips, tools, and inspiration The Let Them Theory: read the book everyone’s talking about Watch the episodes on YouTube Connect with me on Instagram Follow the show’s Instagram for clips, behind the scenes, and more Find some daily positivity on my TikTok Want zero ads? Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-free Disclaimer
Key Insights
- Dr. Chug argues that humans process 11 million 'small thoughts' automatically while only having about 40 'big conscious thoughts' at any moment, which explains why behavior change requires conscious effort and why habits are so persistent.
- The ego bodyguard protects our identity more fiercely than we value basic needs—research shows affirmation of our identity is valued more than food, time with friends, or other basic pleasures.
- Change requires a two-step process of unlearning (letting go of what we already know) before learning the new thing, which Dr. Chug demonstrates creates friction and internal resistance, explaining why people resist change even when they want it.
- The distinction between 'good people' (a static identity) and 'goodish people' (continuously improving) shows that trying to prove we're already good leads to defensiveness, while accepting we're always learning leads to actual improvement and less exhaustion.
- Dr. Chug claims that people cannot learn from mistakes they're still defending—they get into a space of proving themselves rather than improving themselves, which prevents growth.
- Three and only three realistic approaches work to inspire change in others: modeling (doing it yourself first), inviting (creating conditions without forcing), and rewarding (acknowledging efforts), while pushing, manipulating, or bribing may work temporarily but damages relationships.
- Feedback given with adjectives (like 'unprofessional' or 'polished') is easy to argue with and triggers defensiveness, while behavior-specific feedback (describing what was actually observed) is indisputable and actionable.
- The 1-to-10 rule reveals that people often hear everything as urgent (a 10) from us, so when everything is important, nothing is important—and clarifying true priority levels prevents unnecessary conflict.
- Dr. Chug argues the 'heard, hugged, helped, high-five' framework shows that 90% of the time when people ask for advice, what they actually need is to be heard, yet most people immediately jump to problem-solving.
- Supporting someone involves allowing them to face consequences and reckon with their decisions, while enabling cushions them from consequences and actually prevents the edge-hitting moment necessary for real change.
- Dr. Chug states that when we model both 'shout outs' (recognizing others' effort) and 'own it' (taking accountability for our missteps), we give permission for others to grow rather than perform perfection.
- The core mechanism that makes change hard for everyone—including ourselves—is that it threatens our sense of agency and identity, so approaching others' resistance with empathy rather than judgment actually increases the likelihood of influence.
Topics
Transcript
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Oh, you're going to love the episode today, because today you and I are going to learn how to deal with the people in your life who won't change. I mean, we love these people, but they're so frustrating, right? I know you're sick of it. I'm sick of it. Aren't you sick of wasting your time and energy trying to push other people to be better? Of course you are. Today, you're going to learn a different approach. You're going to learn how to use the research to pull the people you love toward the changes that you want to see, and they're not even going to…
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