JRE MMA Show #183 with Rico Verhoeven

Joe Rogan hosts Rico Verhoeven, the undisputed heavyweight kickboxing champion, following his recent professional boxing debut against Oleksandr Usyk, widely considered one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time. Verhoeven came into the fight with only one professional boxing match, having transitioned from a legendary 12+ year career as a heavyweight kickboxing champion with approximately 75 professional fights.

The main focus of the interview centers on the controversial finish of the Usyk fight held in front of the pyramids in Egypt. Despite Verhoeven clearly winning most rounds according to commentators, trainers, and expert observers, the fight was stopped by the referee in the 12th round after Usyk landed an uppercut and briefly rocked Verhoeven. Verhoeven and Rogan extensively discuss how the stoppage appeared premature—Verhoeven was not badly hurt, the doctor found no concussion afterward, and the appeal showed the referee stopped the fight immediately after the bell rang. Both agree this represents either incompetence or corruption in judging/officiating, noting that if the fight went to scorecards based on open scoring information (showing equal scores after 8 rounds), Verhoeven would likely have won despite the controversial final rounds.

Verhoeven describes how he got the Usyk opportunity: Jason Statham, a friend, mentioned his fighting abilities to contacts in boxing, which led to an offer to fight Anthony Joshua. When Joshua pursued the Jake Paul fight instead, and then suffered a tragic car accident, Verhoeven's team proposed the Usyk fight as an "undisputed versus undisputed" matchmaking angle (kickboxing champion vs. boxing champion). The proposal was accepted within two weeks.

The discussion explores Verhoeven's preparation, training methodology, and conditioning. Despite having only 10 weeks initially (later extended to approximately 6 months with the Joshua fight delay and postponement), Verhoeven trained extensively with Peter Fury as his trainer. His game plan deliberately avoided trying to outbox Usyk—instead, he used his size advantage and aggressive forward pressure, moving to Usyk's left (away from his power hand as a southpaw), smothering him, and maintaining an incredibly high pace that commentators questioned but which Verhoeven's exceptional conditioning allowed him to sustain throughout all 12 rounds.

Regarding conditioning, Verhoeven explains his approach isn't simply working harder than competitors but rather having superior mental toughness when fatigued. He employs high-rep, low-rest training (20+ reps per exercise with 30-second rest periods), interval running on specialized treadmills (to protect his knees from his ACL surgery 3 years prior), and emphasizes that he doesn't need to be the strongest puncher—at 260 pounds, any punch carries significant weight. He also uses extensive recovery modalities: cold plunges daily, sauna work, red light therapy 4-5 times weekly, and hyperbaric chambers 3-4 times weekly.

The conversation branches into broader combat sports topics. Rogan and Verhoeven discuss why kickboxing, despite being arguably the most exciting standup sport, has failed to achieve mainstream success in America compared to boxing and MMA. They attribute this to lack of promotion and storytelling, noting that Glory kickboxing had some success on Spike TV but faded. Rogan argues the UFC's embedded series and detailed fighter profiles (showing their families, backgrounds, training) create emotional investment that Glory lacked. Verhoeven agrees and mentions discovering his passion for acting while filming movies like Roadhouse with Jason Statham and Dave Bautista, which he sees as a potential post-fighting career.

The discussion covers judging and scoring problems in combat sports. Both advocate for more judges (Glory uses 5 instead of boxing's 3), suggesting that multiple expert judges would reduce bad decisions. They also discuss various combat sports rules: calf kicks, oblique kicks to the knee, knees to downed opponents, and cage versus ring configurations. Verhoeven expresses concern about oblique kicks and sidekicks to the knee causing career-ending injuries from single techniques, but acknowledges fighters must be able to defend them.

Verhoeven discusses his transition from kickboxing to boxing. For 15 years he boxed while also kickboxing, but trainer Peter Fury had always wanted him to adopt a more sideways stance for boxing—impossible while defending against leg kicks. With kicks removed, Verhoeven had to completely rewire his stance and positioning, requiring the full 6-month preparation period. He explains that while he's not the hardest puncher in boxing, his size and exceptional conditioning are his advantages.

On future career plans, Verhoeven indicates he's in the "winter of his career" and seeks only "big fights that make sense." He received multiple offers post-Usyk fight, including from the UFC (a Francis Ngannou MMA fight was discussed), but indicates the financial gap makes UFC unattractive. He has a new passion in acting and won't blend movie roles with fight preparation—requiring 4 clean months before major fights.

The interview concludes with Rogan advocating strongly for a Usyk rematch, calling it the biggest fight in heavyweight boxing currently and comparing it to a Rocky story. Verhoeven agrees it's the logical fight but acknowledges that without Usyk's agreement and significant money, it may not happen. Rogan notes that Usyk may be looking at easier opponents (Deontay Wilder) for a final payday before retirement, though this isn't confirmed.