#495 — Foreign Policy for Sale
Anne Applebaum discusses how the Trump administration is systematically dismantling traditional American foreign policy institutions and replacing them with ideologues, business associates, and far-right sympathizers who are advancing a revolutionary agenda both domestically and internationally. She argues this represents a fundamental shift in how America operates on the world stage, with specific examples in Europe, Ukraine, and Venezuela.
Summary
Sam Harris interviews Anne Applebaum about her Atlantic cover story on how American foreign policy has become corrupted under the Trump administration. Applebaum characterizes the current approach as a revolutionary project led by a coordinated team rather than Trump alone, aimed at dismantling longstanding diplomatic institutions, expertise, and traditional methods developed over decades.
Applebaum identifies several ideological components driving this revolution: white supremacists concerned with Western civilization, Christian nationalists seeking to replace the secular American state, those wanting to destroy the administrative state, and opportunists seeking to profit from the resulting vacuum. She provides specific evidence of coordinated efforts to support far-right European political parties, including the AFD in Germany, through alliances between the Trump administration, cryptocurrency companies, and tech firms that benefit from deregulation.
When Harris raises the legitimate concern that some centrist observers might sympathize with far-right movements due to genuine threats from Islamism and unchecked immigration, Applebaum counters with factual evidence. She notes that centrist and center-right governments in Poland have actually implemented stricter immigration policies than previous far-right governments, contradicting the narrative that only the far-right defends Western civilization. She warns that the AFD is openly pro-Russian, contains neo-Nazis, seeks to dismantle Germany's judicial and legal structures, and would prevent Germany from using rearmament to defend against Russia—creating a dangerous paradox where the U.S. simultaneously calls for German rearmament while supporting a party hostile to that purpose.
Regarding European rearmament, Applebaum clarifies that this stems primarily from the Russian threat in Ukraine, not from Trump's inconsistency as an ally, though Trump's unreliability has contributed to Europe's reorientation. She describes the current state of the Ukrainian war: the front line is static or moving in Ukraine's favor due to drone technology that makes movement in no-man's-land suicidal, yet Russia is sending waves of troops anyway, resulting in massive casualties. Russia has escalated targeting of Ukrainian civilian infrastructure including hospitals and kindergartens, employing strategies previously used in Chechnya and Syria. Ukraine has developed the capability to hit Russian refineries over long distances, destroying 30-40 percent of Russian refining capacity.
The conversation concludes with discussion of Venezuela, where Applebaum notes the U.S. is not promoting rule of law or opposing criminality but rather partnering with criminals, and preventing the legitimate opposition leader Maria Karina Machado from returning to her country.
About this episode
<p dir="ltr">Sam Harris speaks with Anne Applebaum about corruption, authoritarianism, and America's retreat from the world. They discuss her <em>Atlantic</em> cover story, the revolutionary project behind Trump's second term, US support for Europe's far right, the AfD, European rearmament, the state of the war in Ukraine, Russian propaganda, Witkoff and Kushner's deal-making in Moscow, Venezuela as a union of kleptocracies, JD Vance's nativism, the midterms, the challenge of depoliticizing institutions, and other topics.</p> <p dir="ltr">If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at <a href="http://samharris.org/subscribe" rel="noopener" target="_blank">samharris.org/subscribe</a>.</p> <p> </p>
Key Insights
- Applebaum argues that the Trump administration represents a revolutionary project with coordinated ideological components (white supremacy, Christian nationalism, anti-regulation) allied with business interests seeking to profit from institutional collapse, rather than solely Trump's personal narcissism.
- She claims the U.S. is now actively building relationships with far-right opposition parties in Europe to undermine existing governments and the European Union itself, marking a departure from historical American foreign policy approaches.
- Applebaum contends that narratives about unchecked immigration and Islamist threats driving far-right support are factually overstated—centrist European governments have implemented stricter immigration policies than previous far-right governments, undermining the rationale for supporting the far-right.
- She argues there is a dangerous contradiction in simultaneously pushing for German rearmament while supporting the AFD, a pro-Russian party that would prevent Germany from using weapons against Russia and potentially seeks to reclaim Polish territory.
- Applebaum claims that in Ukraine, the static front line results from drone technology making conventional movement suicidal, causing Russia to accept massive casualties by sending waves of troops into no-man's-land, while Russia increasingly targets civilian infrastructure in a strategy of societal destruction.
Topics
Transcript
You're listening to Making Sense with Sam Harris. This is the free version of the podcast, so you'll only hear the first part of today's conversation. If you want the full episode and every episode, you can subscribe at samharris.org. There are no ads on this show. It runs entirely on subscriber support. If you enjoy what we're doing here and find it valuable, please consider subscribing today. I am here with Anne Applebaum. Anne, it's great to see you again. Thanks for having me. I must confess, I bring you on because you're one of the great observers of the unraveling of America and our stature on the world stage. But also, I really always have a covert agenda…
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