#460 — When the Center Cannot Hold
Political commentator Jonah Goldberg discusses the erosion of American institutions under Trump, analyzing how both parties have become increasingly beholden to their extreme bases rather than governing for the center. He explores the structural problems with primaries and campaign finance that incentivize partisan extremism over moderate governance.
Summary
Goldberg argues that Trump is running a 'personalist regime' where the distinction between his personal desires and state demands are completely blurred, leading to institutional decay that will be difficult to repair. He points to examples like federal judges rescinding the 'presumption of regularity' for government lawyers due to lying, and Trump loyalists punishing economists for stating basic facts about tariffs. Goldberg contends that both parties now primarily serve their angry bases rather than swing voters, due to structural changes in how primaries work and campaign finance operates. He explains that unlike other democracies, American parties have given up the ability to pick their own candidates, farming it out to 'the angriest people on the left and right.' The incentive structure rewards politicians who promise to 'tear the skull off enemies' rather than work across the aisle. He believes the only way to restore sanity is to have both parties become sane simultaneously, as having one crazy party gives permission for the other to be crazy as well. Goldberg predicts Democrats will likely retake the House in midterms and discusses the concerning schism on the right between those who think 'Nazis are probably still bad' and those willing to include them in a big tent approach. He characterizes figures like J.D. Vance as leading an 'anti anti-Nazi' movement - not necessarily being Nazis themselves but defending Nazi-adjacent figures for political gain.
About this episode
<p dir="ltr">Sam Harris speaks with Jonah Goldberg about the state of American conservatism and the Trump presidency. They discuss the politicization of federal institutions, the erosion of legal norms, the schism between Never Trump conservatives and the nationalist right, infighting over figures like Nick Fuentes, J.D. Vance's political future, a theory of mind for Tucker Carlson, the prospects for regime change in Iran, and other topics.</p> <p dir="ltr">If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at <a href="http://samharris.org/subscribe">samharris.org/subscribe</a>.</p>
Key Insights
- Goldberg argues that Trump operates a 'personalist regime' where personal aims and state demands are completely blurred, causing long-term institutional damage that cannot be repaired overnight
- The speaker contends that structural changes to primaries and campaign finance have created perverse incentives where politicians must pander to their party's angriest members rather than appeal to swing voters
- Goldberg claims that sanity requires both parties to be sane simultaneously, as having one crazy party gives permission for the other party to abandon norms as well
- He characterizes the current Republican schism as being between those who think 'Nazis are probably still bad' and those willing to include Nazi-adjacent figures in a big tent approach
- Goldberg argues that J.D. Vance leads an 'anti anti-Nazi' movement - not being a Nazi himself but defending Nazi-adjacent figures because he perceives it serves his political interests
Topics
Transcript
Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and will only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one. On our political landscape. If we're talking politically, right? I mean, there's also, you know, the AI thing is interesting in all sorts of ways. We could talk about that and all. But if…
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