#458 — The Bulwark Against MAGA
Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller from The Bulwark discuss their origins as Never Trump Republicans and analyze the current state of right-wing media figures like Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, and Tucker Carlson. They explore how Trump transformed conservative politics and examine the concerning influence of conspiracy theorists and anti-establishment figures within the Republican party.
Summary
Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller, co-founders of The Bulwark, join Sam Harris to discuss their background as Never Trump Republicans and their analysis of current conservative politics. Both came from traditional Republican backgrounds - Miller as a campaign operative working for McCain, Huntsman, and Jeb Bush, while Longwell worked in policy and communications. They explain how Trump's rise led them to create The Bulwark as a platform opposing his influence on conservatism.
The conversation explores how smart, previously principled Republicans rationalized supporting Trump, with Miller and Longwell identifying factors like tribalism, access to power, propaganda, and cognitive rationalization. They discuss the 'Republican triangle of doom' - the toxic relationship between voters, right-wing media, and elected officials that reinforces Trump's hold on the party.
A significant portion focuses on analyzing key media figures: Ben Shapiro, who they see as compromised by business incentives despite knowing better; Candace Owens, whom they view as particularly dangerous for radicalizing young audiences through conspiracy theories including bizarre claims about Charlie Kirk's death; and Tucker Carlson, who they believe has undergone genuine radicalization while maintaining significant influence over figures like J.D. Vance. They express concern about the 'America First' wing of the party that includes anti-Semitic and conspiracy-driven content creators who are successfully recruiting new audiences through entertaining but dangerous content.
About this episode
<p dir="ltr">Sam Harris speaks with Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller about Trump and the future of American politics. They discuss the origins of <em>The Bulwark</em>, the bewildering psychology of Trump's base, the new era of authenticity, memory-holing January 6th, how media broke politics, why Kamala Harris should never run again, the difference between America First and MAGA, potential 2028 Democratic candidates, and other topics.</p> <p>If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at <a href="http://samharris.org/subscribe">samharris.org/subscribe</a>.</p>
Key Insights
- Miller argues that rationalization is extremely powerful and allows people to justify supporting Trump by focusing on one or two issues they agree with while ignoring his fundamental corruption
- Longwell identifies a 'Republican triangle of doom' where voters, right-wing media, and elected officials create a toxic reinforcement loop that maintains Trump's control over the party
- The hosts argue that Ben Shapiro knows Trump is wrong but maintains support due to business model constraints at Daily Wire, making him particularly culpable for providing intellectual cover
- They claim Candace Owens is successfully radicalizing young audiences across political lines through entertaining conspiracy content, including bizarre theories about Emmanuel Macron and Charlie Kirk's death
- Miller suggests Tucker Carlson has undergone genuine radicalization rather than mere performance, evidenced by his brother's extreme conspiracy content and his influence on J.D. Vance's selection as VP
- The authors argue that Republican elites cannot abandon white nationalist and conspiracy theory audiences because they form the energetic base that controls party power structures
- Longwell observes through focus groups that many Trump voters exist in completely different information ecosystems and don't even know about figures like Nick Fuentes or the extent of conspiracy theories
- They contend that the 'America First' wing led by Tucker and Candace represents a recruitment mechanism that brings new people into MAGA through entertainment and community rather than traditional political messaging
Topics
Transcript
Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and will only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And we…
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