#456 — American Fascism

In this conversation, Jonathan Rauch discusses his recent Atlantic article 'Yes, It's Fascism' with Sam Harris, explaining his reluctant shift from describing Trump as a patrimonialist to calling him a fascist. Rauch previously argued that Trump represented patrimonialism - treating the state as personal property for enrichment and placing loyalists over experts - but maintained this wasn't ideological or aggressive enough to qualify as fascism. However, recent developments led him to identify 18 characteristics of fascism that now apply to Trump's approach. The discussion covers the distinction between having fascist leaders versus living under a fully fascist regime, noting that America currently has 'a liberal constitution and a fascist leader.' They examine specific fascist characteristics including the deliberate demolition of civil norms, which Rauch argues is a strategic tactic to dominate discourse and render liberal democratic participants unable to compete effectively. The conversation also addresses the glorification of violence, particularly analyzing the killing of a protester and the administration's response, which treated peaceful protest and gun ownership as inherently threatening. Harris emphasizes the contradiction this presents for Second Amendment advocates who have remained silent despite seeing their core principles violated. Both speakers acknowledge the historical pattern of fascist leaders initially appearing as buffoons or comic figures while actually being strategic manipulators of public discourse. They discuss whether using the term 'fascism' is advisable or counterproductive, with Rauch arguing it's necessary to help people maintain focus on the bigger picture amid constant distractions.