#456 — American Fascism
Jonathan Rauch explains to Sam Harris why he changed his position and now considers Trump's administration fascist rather than merely patrimonialist. They discuss the 18 characteristics of fascism that Rauch identified and analyze specific examples including norm demolition, glorification of violence, and the implications of recent government actions.
Summary
In this conversation, Jonathan Rauch discusses his recent Atlantic article 'Yes, It's Fascism' with Sam Harris, explaining his reluctant shift from describing Trump as a patrimonialist to calling him a fascist. Rauch previously argued that Trump represented patrimonialism - treating the state as personal property for enrichment and placing loyalists over experts - but maintained this wasn't ideological or aggressive enough to qualify as fascism. However, recent developments led him to identify 18 characteristics of fascism that now apply to Trump's approach. The discussion covers the distinction between having fascist leaders versus living under a fully fascist regime, noting that America currently has 'a liberal constitution and a fascist leader.' They examine specific fascist characteristics including the deliberate demolition of civil norms, which Rauch argues is a strategic tactic to dominate discourse and render liberal democratic participants unable to compete effectively. The conversation also addresses the glorification of violence, particularly analyzing the killing of a protester and the administration's response, which treated peaceful protest and gun ownership as inherently threatening. Harris emphasizes the contradiction this presents for Second Amendment advocates who have remained silent despite seeing their core principles violated. Both speakers acknowledge the historical pattern of fascist leaders initially appearing as buffoons or comic figures while actually being strategic manipulators of public discourse. They discuss whether using the term 'fascism' is advisable or counterproductive, with Rauch arguing it's necessary to help people maintain focus on the bigger picture amid constant distractions.
About this episode
<p>Sam Harris speaks with Jonathan Rauch about the emergence of fascism in American politics. They discuss Rauch's article, "Yes, It's Fascism," the 18 criteria of fascism, the glorification and unapologetic use of state violence, "might is right" foreign policy, the politicization of law enforcement, the complicity of the rich and powerful, blood and soil nationalism, the influence of Carl Schmitt, the resilience of American institutions, and other topics.</p> <p dir="ltr">If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at <a href="http://samharris.org/subscribe">samharris.org/subscribe</a>.</p>
Key Insights
- Rauch argues that Trump has evolved from a patrimonialist who treats the state as personal property into a fascist leader who deliberately demolishes democratic norms as a strategic tactic to dominate public discourse
- The speakers contend that fascist leaders historically appear as buffoons or comic figures initially, which causes people to underestimate their danger and strategic manipulation of public discourse
- Harris argues that conservative gun rights advocates have hypocritically remained silent when the Second Amendment was effectively nullified in the aftermath of a protester's killing by federal agents
- Rauch claims that America currently exists as a hybrid state with 'a liberal constitution and a fascist leader' rather than being a fully fascist regime
- The discussion reveals that deliberate norm-breaking serves fascist purposes by moving political discourse to an arena where liberal democratic participants cannot effectively compete due to their commitment to civility and tolerance
Topics
Transcript
Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and will only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one. Hi, I'm here with Jonathan Rauch. Thanks for joining me again. Happy to be here. So let's jump right into it. You have recently written yet another important article for The Atlantic where you…
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