#452 — Is Wokeness Finally Dead?
Sam Harris interviews John McWhorter about the current state of 'woke' ideology and culture war issues. McWhorter argues that while peak wokeness may have passed in general society, it remains deeply entrenched in academia and the arts, potentially irreversibly so.
Summary
In this conversation, John McWhorter discusses his perspective on whether 'wokeness' is truly declining. While he acknowledges that peak woke ideology appears to have passed at a societal level, he expresses pessimism about academia and the arts, believing these institutions may be irreparably damaged. McWhorter, who teaches at Columbia, argues that the ideological capture runs so deep in these areas that it will simply go underground rather than disappear, with DEI initiatives being rebranded rather than eliminated. He cites specific examples from musicology, where scholars like Philip Ewell argue that music theory is inherently racist and that Beethoven is overrated due to his whiteness. The conversation touches on the 2020 George Floyd protests, with McWhorter arguing that the central myth driving much of the unrest - that black men face disproportionate danger from police shootings - is not supported by data. He suggests this misconception, amplified by social media algorithms, led to widespread kabuki theater rather than genuine reform. McWhorter reflects on his role as a public intellectual, discussing his book 'Woke Racism' and questioning whether he should dedicate more time to combating these ideologies rather than pursuing other intellectual interests. The discussion also covers his ongoing dialogue with Glenn Loury, noting some recent disagreements over Israel-Palestine issues and Trump.
About this episode
<p>Sam Harris speaks with John McWhorter about language, ideology, and moral certainty. They discuss the rise and persistence of "wokeness" and DEI, the legacy of George Floyd's death, the role of social media in amplifying moral panic, how identity shapes perceptions of Israel-Palestine, the linguistics of Donald Trump, the rise of casual speech, conspiracy thinking, positions McWhorter has reconsidered, and other topics.</p> <p>If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at <a href="http://samharris.org/subscribe" rel="noopener" target="_blank">samharris.org/subscribe</a>.</p>
Key Insights
- McWhorter argues that while societal wokeness has peaked, academia and arts institutions remain irreversibly captured by woke ideology that will go underground rather than disappear
- He contends that the core belief driving 2020 protests - that black men face disproportionate police violence - is a myth unsupported by statistical evidence
- McWhorter identifies a common thread across various woke issues: the idea that battling power differentials must be the central goal of academic, artistic, and judicial endeavors
- He suggests that social media algorithms created a distorted perception of police violence, with people overestimating unarmed black deaths by orders of magnitude
- McWhorter expresses ambivalence about his role as a public intellectual, questioning whether he should focus more on anti-woke messaging rather than pursuing diverse intellectual interests
Topics
Transcript
Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and we'll only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one. During the Troubles was our first one. Well, how are the Troubles? Have the Troubles continued? Where are we in your side of the culture war? Well, to tell you the truth, I think…
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