558: What We Can Learn From John Spencer Almost Dying 20 Times.

Jocko Willink interviews John Spencer about his latest book '20 Times I Almost Died: Life Lessons from the Edge of Survival.' Spencer recounts near-fatal experiences from his 25-year military career and extensive war research, extracting lessons that have shaped his character and worldview.

Spencer begins by discussing his current war research activities across multiple conflict zones. He recently visited southern Lebanon to observe Israeli Defense Force operations against Hezbollah, noting the modernization of the Indian military and comparing Chinese-backed Pakistani systems tested in the 2025 India-Pakistan conflict. He emphasizes that technological advances like drones, while important, don't win wars alone—boots on the ground remain essential.

The conversation covers multiple specific incidents from Spencer's book. During a tour of Hamas tunnels in Gaza, Spencer emphasizes the critical lesson of presence: 'There is no replacement for presence not in parenting not in leadership not in business.' He recounts entering a 150-foot-deep tunnel system with limited security, recognizing the extreme danger but understanding the research value. This reflects his broader approach to war studies—being physically present where conflicts occur.

A pivotal story involves a near-fatal IED discovery in Iraq. Spencer and his team encountered a suspicious yellow-insulated wire connected to buried artillery shells. His interpreter suggested simply pulling it away, but Spencer's intuition—informed by pattern recognition and Gavin de Becker's 'Gift of Fear'—told him something was wrong. He ordered the area cordoned off instead of disturbed. An EOD team later discovered it was a complex booby trap designed to kill both soldiers and explosive ordnance disposal experts. Spencer credits this moment as probably his closest brush with death.

Another formative incident occurred at age 19 when Spencer was struck in the back of the head with a baseball bat outside a bar. He lost consciousness and woke up with three-quarters of his ear bitten off in a subsequent fight. Though he recovered physically, the incident led to his being 'relieved for standards' from the Ranger Regiment by Stanley McChrystal, forcing him to leave the unit that defined his identity. This rejection initially devastated him but eventually led to greater opportunities and life lessons about identity, respect, and how respect must be earned rather than demanded.

Spencer discusses the Best Ranger Competition, an ultra-endurance military competition lasting over 60 hours with minimal food (one MRE per day). He competed with a partner and finished 12th. During the competition, he fell 40 feet off a cargo net when tactical training methods didn't account for upgraded equipment. His boot caught in the net milliseconds before his head would have hit the ground. He notes that Liam Collins, who would later become his boss and research partner, won that year's competition seemingly effortlessly, demonstrating exceptional endurance athlete capabilities.

Spencer recounts a harrowing incident during mounted patrol in Iraq where their vehicle was t-boned by a civilian van traveling at 60 mph. The collision killed six civilians inside the van and severely wounded two of his soldiers (May and Wood). Despite injuries, his soldier May refused evacuation until ordered onto the medevac helicopter. Both soldiers were eventually discharged after recovery. This experience taught Spencer about duty—the obligation to fulfill responsibilities as part of a team, not just individually.

In Baghdad, Spencer had to navigate complex interactions with local power brokers—what he calls 'the Sopranos of Baghdad.' He describes a tense meeting with Ahmed, a tribal leader/gangster, and Najeeb, a rival, where weapons were nearly drawn over blood money disputes. Spencer employed humility and calm communication to de-escalate, recognizing he was in their territory operating under their rules. This taught him that leaders must check their ego and understand power dynamics in complex environments.

Spencer discusses his experience in Bucha, Ukraine, where Russian forces committed systematic atrocities including execution-style killings of civilians. He emphasizes that his manual for urban defense, written before the war, became widely translated and distributed throughout Ukraine, used by both military and civilian defenders. This demonstrates the real-world application of his research and the value of service beyond expecting recognition.

Regarding current operations in Gaza, Spencer provides nuanced analysis. Rather than viewing the conflict as simply ended, he describes it as conditions-based with a Yellow Line dividing Israeli-controlled territory (60%) from Hamas-controlled areas (40%). A new Palestinian government (INCAG) has been established separate from both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, implementing de-radicalized curricula and rebuilding society incrementally. Spencer is optimistic because of Palestinian leaders stepping up despite skepticism, drawing parallels to the Al-Anbar Awakening in Iraq where tribal leaders eventually chose to work with Americans against Al Qaeda.

The book extracts lessons from each incident: intuition and pattern recognition preventing disaster; common sense overriding processes; respect being earned not demanded; humility in leadership; integrity maintained despite pressure; discipline as daily choice; family bonds forged through shared hardship; and service to something greater than oneself. Spencer emphasizes that stress reveals character, and many of these incidents tested him fundamentally.

Spencer created a personal family code—STRONG acronym (Strong in mind and body; Treat all with kindness; Respect is earned; Own your decisions; Never quit; Given nothing, earn everything)—emphasizing that everyone should develop personal codes rather than relying solely on institutional values. He notes that having a framework guides better decision-making across all life domains, not just military contexts.

The conversation addresses technology in modern warfare, with Spencer cautious about the 'vampire fallacy'—the belief that one technology solves everything. He cites the Azerbaijan-Armenia War where despite drone innovations, soldiers still had to hump 40 kilometers with heavy rucks, breach minefields, and engage in traditional combat. Similarly, in Ukraine, despite extensive drone use, neither side has air superiority and massive casualties continue despite technological advantages.

Spencer emphasizes that his current research differs from post-war retrospectives. Being present during active operations in Gaza allowed him to observe IDF tunnel-clearing techniques, facial recognition applications, and tactical innovations that he later compiled into a 63-page report for military leadership. He argues this real-time presence provides research value impossible to achieve through interviews alone.