Bringing Extinct Species Back to Life | Dr. Beth Shapiro
Dr. Beth Shapiro discusses de-extinction efforts at Colossal Biosciences, including woolly mammoths, dodos, and dire wolves, while explaining how ancient DNA sequencing and synthetic biology are being used to revive extinct species and conserve endangered populations. The conversation covers the science of species definition, genetic engineering in humans, ecosystem restoration, and the ethical implications of using these technologies.
Summary
Dr. Beth Shapiro, Chief Scientific Officer at Colossal Biosciences, joins Andrew Huberman to explore the science and ethics of bringing extinct species back to life. The discussion begins with taxonomy and species concepts, establishing that 'species' is a human construct used for communication rather than a biological absolute. Shapiro explains that organism relationships are determined by comparing genetic sequences, and that the closest living relative of a woolly mammoth is the Asian elephant, with the two genomes being approximately 99% similar.
The de-extinction process involves identifying genetic differences between extinct and living species using ancient DNA from fossils, then using CRISPR and synthetic biology to edit those specific traits into the genome of living relatives. For the dire wolf, researchers identified 20 specific genetic edits that made them larger, more robust, and light-colored, which were then engineered into gray wolves. Three dire wolves—Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi—are currently being studied; they are hand-reared but exhibit wild behavior as they mature.
Shapiro emphasizes that de-extinction and conservation technologies are fundamentally the same tools. The excitement around mammoth and dodo projects generates public engagement and investment that directly supports conservation efforts for endangered species. She cites examples like the northern quoll in Australia, where a single genetic letter change—identified through studying mammals that can safely eat toxic cane toads—could prevent extinction.
The conversation explores human genetic modification, noting that humans have been genetically selecting for traits like height for millennia through mate selection. Ancient DNA reveals that tall stature genes in Northern Europeans were introduced by the Yamnaya people 4,700 years ago. Shapiro discusses the case of baby KJ, cured of a urea cycle deficiency using base editing CRISPR therapy, demonstrating the medical benefits of genetic modification. She predicts genetic screening for disease prevention will become commonplace in fertility treatments within 3-5 years.
On ecosystem restoration, Shapiro describes Pleistocene Park in Siberia, where large herbivores are being reintroduced to restore grasslands and increase carbon sequestration. The woolly mammoth project aims to help restore these ecosystems by managing vegetation through their natural grazing behavior. She addresses mosquito-borne disease control, suggesting gene drives could responsibly reduce disease-carrying mosquito populations while maintaining ecosystem balance.
The discussion addresses public skepticism about scientist motivations and the importance of transparency. Shapiro emphasizes that advisory panels including local stakeholders guide all de-extinction projects, citing examples like the Māori-led MOA (ancient New Zealand bird) project. She discusses the human tendency to romanticize the past while fearing the future, noting that ecosystems have always been shaped by human activity—from ancient megafauna extinction to dog domestication to species translocation.
Shapiro's career origin story reveals her transition from broadcast journalism to ancient DNA research after a geology and archaeology field program. She joined Alan Cooper's ancient DNA lab at Oxford because it was new, interdisciplinary, and offered the chance to work in Siberia. The earliest ancient DNA discovery in 1984 involved a quagga (extinct zebra), but media immediately asked about dinosaurs—a pattern that continues today.
Artificial womb technology, motivated by de-extinction needs, has applications for human medicine, such as allowing cancer treatment during pregnancy or enabling fetal surgery. Shapiro argues that using genetic tools to help ecosystems become more resilient is ethically sound, and that 'doing nothing' is itself a decision that accepts biodiversity loss. She stresses the importance of individual scientists being genuinely passionate about their work rather than attempting to solve every problem.
About this episode
Dr. Beth Shapiro, PhD, is an evolutionary biologist and Chief Science Officer at Colossal Biosciences. Her work focuses on de-extinction and wildlife conservation efforts. We discuss genetic differences among humans, and how ancient DNA and modern embryology are being used to de-extinct and protect woolly mammoths, dodo birds, and dire wolves, as well as to help conserve endangered species. We also explore the ethical implications of de-extinction and how synthetic biology can help build a more bio diverse and resilient world. Read the full episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Timestamps (00:00:00) Beth Shapiro (00:02:35) What is a Species?, Taxonomy, Bison (00:09:13) Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo Sapiens (00:12:38) Sponsors: Joovv & Eight Sleep (00:15:27) Hybrid Ancestry, “Grolar” Bears (00:20:30) Homo Sapiens & Neanderthal Interbreeding, Genes; Denisovans (00:25:53) Neanderthal Genes, Immunity, Red Hair; Eye Color (00:30:17) De-Extinction, Species Selection, Woolly Mammoths (00:38:08) Sponsor: AG1 (00:39:21) Bird De-Extinction, Dodo; Reproduction & Genes (00:47:40) Development Biology, Woolly Mammoth, Elephants (00:54:49) Dire Wolf, Synthetic Biology, Ethics (01:03:26) De-Extinction, Ecology, Conservation, Ethics (01:09:22) Ecosystem Resilience, Thylacine; Preventing Extinction, Quolls (01:15:45) Sponsor: Function (01:17:23) Modeling Ecological Impact, Mosquitoes, Gene Drives; Panthers (01:25:50) Advisory Panels, Synthetic Biology Education (01:29:13) Genetic Selection in Humans, Human-Shaped World (01:38:25) Black-Footed Ferrets, Genetic Rescue (01:47:05) Dire Wolf; Ecological Modeling, New Technology & Public Fear (01:55:09) Artificial Wombs; Current Issues, Conservation & Red Wolf (02:01:26) Science Pioneers; Colossal Public Education (02:04:31) Beth’s Science Origin Story; Dinosaurs (02:13:42) Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Key Insights
- Species is a human concept created for communication rather than a biological reality; organisms don't inherently 'care' what species they are designated as.
- The woolly mammoth genome is 99% identical to the Asian elephant genome, making targeted genetic edits feasible for creating mammoths adapted to current Arctic environments.
- De-extinction and conservation use identical technological tools and frameworks, so success in de-extinction directly generates applicable technologies for saving endangered species.
- The dire wolf project involved only 20 specific genetic edits into gray wolf genomes, deliberately avoiding genetic changes that could cause blindness or deafness by using safe edits already present in living dog populations.
- Humans and Neanderthals interbred successfully enough that 2-5% of modern human DNA is Neanderthal-derived, and different people carry different Neanderthal genetic segments that collectively represent over 95% of the Neanderthal genome.
- Height in Northern Europeans increased not primarily through environmental factors but through the introduction of tall-stature alleles by the Yamnaya people 4,700 years ago, demonstrating historical human genetic selection.
- Brown bears alive in North America today carry polar bear ancestry from interbreeding 20,000 years ago during the last ice age, showing that gene flow between species occurs naturally over evolutionary time.
- Large herbivores like mammoths create landscape mosaics through their grazing behavior that increases plant diversity and carbon sequestration, making them valuable for ecosystem restoration regardless of extinction status.
- Public excitement about de-extinction projects like mammoths and dire wolves generates engagement and funding that directly supports technologies used to prevent living species from becoming extinct.
- The oldest recoverable DNA comes from a mammoth bone dated to 1-2 million years ago; dinosaurs cannot be cloned because they died 66 million years ago and their DNA has completely degraded.
- Black-footed ferrets nearly went extinct because pesticides intended to kill prairie dogs killed ferrets instead; cloning technology is being used to reintroduce genetic diversity from captive populations frozen decades earlier.
- Gene drives can be engineered to persist for only a fixed number of generations or include kill switches, making them safer for potential deployment against disease-carrying mosquitoes or invasive plants like cheatgrass.
- Base editing CRISPR therapy has already cured a human baby (KJ) of urea cycle deficiency, demonstrating that genetic medicine for inherited diseases is not theoretical but currently operational.
- The decision to use genetic technologies or not use them both constitute active choices; choosing to do nothing about ecosystem collapse is ethically equivalent to choosing intervention, not morally neutral.
- Public resistance to genetic modification often stems from unfamiliar delivery methods rather than fundamental ethical concerns; once technologies become commonplace (like ICSI for fertility), public acceptance increases substantially.
Topics
Transcript
So our dire wolves, they have 20 edits that we picked and we sequenced genomes from fossil dire wolves. We learned from those genomes what genetic changes made those animals bigger, more robust, light colored in coat. And then we engineered those changes into a gray wolf genome to recreate the dire wolf. You know, I often get the question of why are you thinking about bringing extinct species back to life? Why aren't you thinking about helping living species not become extinct? And the answer is, we are doing both. It is the same tools. It's the same technology. It's the same needs. people with the idea of mammoths and dodos and thylacines, we get more engagement and enthusiasm…
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